Last night in Orange County I had one of my liveliest debates with atheist Christopher Hitchens and the Jewish radio host Dennis Prager. The debate--a sort of Christian-Atheist-Jew slugfest--was held at the Bat Yahm synagogue in Newport Beach. There was a sellout crowd of 1,500, with about 400 turned away.
The debate was unusual in that it involved not two but three different perspectives. Hitchens was particularly harsh in his exchanges with Prager, at one point accusing Prager of covering up for anti-Semitism. My exchanges with Hitchens were consistently sharp but also mutually respectful, and later Hitchens told me that I am one of the most formidable debaters that he has ever faced. I predict this debate will generate huge interest when it is posted on the web. After the debate Hitchens joined my wife and me at the bar where we downed two bottles of Pinot Noir and solved many of the world's problems.
Since our debate focused on God as understood from a Christian, Jewish and atheist perspective, missing from the event was a Muslim perspective. This is a pity, because one staple item of atheist rhetoric is the equation of Islamic extremism with Christianity. In my cross-examination I pressed Hitchens on this issue, and will let viewers watch our exchange for themselves and make up their own minds.
We find the equation between "Islamic fundamentalism" and "Christian fundamentalism" not only among the new atheists but also in the popular culture. Several weeks ago Christiane Amanpour of CNN did her special on "God's Warriors." The premise: The Abrahamic religions all lead to extremism. So Amanpour did three segments, one on Islamic extremism, one on Jewish extremism and one on Christian extremism.
Striking to the viewer, however, was the strained attempt to equate the three. Islamic extremism featured the 9/11 attacks, the Bali bombing, the London bombing, the Madrid bombing, and the list goes on. What about Christian extremism? Well, there was Christiane Amanpour in desperate search for the Christian Bin Laden, the Christian Al Qaeda, the Christian Hamas, the Christian Hezbollah, the Christian state currently run along the lines of post-Khomeini Iran.
Poor Christiane came up empty handed. So she was forced to locate marginal groups which would be repudiated by 99.9 percent of Christians and try to pass them off as the Christian equivalent of the Islamic radicals. I was especially interested to find out that there is an old guy in the hills of Montana who wants to blow up the world in the name of Jesus. Too bad he's broke and doesn't have any teeth. Still, one day he hopes to get a job and carry out his nefarious plans. I suppose this is the closest thing to a Christian Bin Laden. We are all supposed to be very afraid of this man!
One of the new atheists very cleverly termed 9/11 a "faith based initiative." But the witticism conceals an intellectual sleight-of-hand. Bush merely wants the government to be able to support faith-based charities on the same basis as it supports secular charities. What happened at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon seven years ago can hardly be placed in the same intellectual category.
Of late some of the new atheists are backing off from their fraudulent analogy between Islamic extremism and Christianity. This is a powerful blow to the new atheism, because so much of its relevance came from its ability to surf on the wave of current events and interpret modern terrorism as the expression of a generic religious impulse. In reality Bin Laden is more accurately compared to an atheist despot like Pol Pot. I realize the analogy is not entirely fair--to Bin Laden! After all, Bin Laden's death toll (several thousand killed over a dozen years) doesn't come closer to Pol Pot's 2 million killed in the space of three years.
Besides, Pol Pot was a Little League atheist compared to Mao and Stalin, whose death toll was in the tens of millions. When it comes to mass murder in the modern era, Islamic radicalism simply cannot keep up with atheism.
Reader Comments ( Page 5 of 53)
61. @ #56
John,
Thanks for your comments. They were about as deep as a puddle.
None-the-less, I did have a typo. It should have read 'perpetuate'.
matt at 6:51PM on May 2nd 2008
62. I agree with GHB. Just because we are not Christians doesn't mean we all hop on the abortion wagon.
I prefer to work towards making abortions UNNECESSARY. This means making safe birth control readily available and encouraging people to use it. It means talking not only to our daughters, but to our sons about responsibility. It means by supporting research to give us additional, long lasting, and easier to use birth control methods. (My personal wish list would include a long term, reversible, no thinking required, MALE birth control device! Building it into a Play Station or Wii would be a bonus.)
Kodiak at 6:55PM on May 2nd 2008
63. Dinesh: "In reality Bin Laden is more accurately compared to an atheist despot like Pol Pot"
Is he really trying to distance Bin Laden from religious extremism?
Ryan Anderson at 6:58PM on May 2nd 2008
64. Is he really trying to distance Bin Laden from religious extremism?
Ryan Anderson at 6:58PM on May 2nd 2008
--==--
I dunno Ryan?
If I didn't know better I would think the comparison was in reference to both men being not white christians.
mac at 7:08PM on May 2nd 2008
65. 55. Goddess
if the science of Darwinism is true then it would logically effect us socially.
Can you help me understand why there is a difference?
Matt at 6:27PM on May 2nd 2008
------------------------
I can, Matt, although you seem to have asked goddess and not godless. Read this. Oh, and the site is excellent for ALL your evolution questions. Enjoy.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/social.html
Godless Heathen Brian at 7:16PM on May 2nd 2008
66. 61. Oh by the way...the group hug...I can't give you guys Cyber AIDS...unless....it's created...by?????
Since it's been brought to my attention that I've been Naturally selected.....does that mean....no group hugs for me???
Pati at 6:49PM on May 2nd 2008
------------------------
HI Patti!
OF COURSE you can be included in the group hug. I wish we could give you one in person.
So sorry about your situation. Must be hard to keep your chin up so well. I wish it were different. It pains me to think of the frustration you must have. I can't even imagine it. I'm glad that, in spite of that, you seem a positive person that has a lot to offer our little group here.
I admire your grit. Welcome to the pit. :-)
Godless Heathen Brian at 7:21PM on May 2nd 2008
67. Yeah, Pati, hugs from me, too.
I am not sure if matt is being serious or is making a lame attempt at sarcasm or irony (or sarcastic irony?) Either way, don't let him bug you.
Kodiak at 7:28PM on May 2nd 2008
68. In reality Bin Laden is more accurately compared to an atheist despot like Pol Pot. I realize the analogy is not entirely fair--to Bin Laden!
-------------------------------
Dinesh becomes more desperate with every post.
Tell them anything if it makes it seem that religion is not at fault. But, what if it is?
To compare Bin Ladin to an atheist Pol Pot is quite a stretch, even for him.
However, would it surprise me to learn that Bin Ladin's a closet atheist, or perhaps a nominal muslim, who just USES the religion he knows so well to accomplish his ends? Not at all. It still speaks bad for the RELIGION that it's so easily USED in that way. So, perhaps the valild comparison is Bin Ladin to Hitler and Constantine. Even if all were atheists, they couldn't do such evil without the religion as a tool. Or they didn't choose to, since it was so much easier that way.
Godless Heathen Brian at 7:36PM on May 2nd 2008
69. Pati
I'll hug ya... if you want
I saw a T-shirt today that's in line with what Kodiak and GHB are saying.
" If Assholes Could Fly. . .This Place Would Be An Airport"
That being said, I'm an occasional pilot myself,
mac at 7:40PM on May 2nd 2008
70. Besides, Pol Pot was a Little League atheist compared to Mao and Stalin, whose death toll was in the tens of millions. When it comes to mass murder in the modern era, Islamic radicalism simply cannot keep up with atheism. So says DD
Your rant against atheist is so unrealistic I would think you would be embarrassed to having these words come from your lips. How underhanded, comparing the likes of pol pot, Mao, and Stalin with all atheist. They have no belief system.They just go negative on the God idea. To be so simple minded as to claim to higher path over an atheist is simply pathetic. I am not an atheist, and from my viewpoint you do not argue against them, you try to exploit their hearts, and souls.You are using the god given intelligence you have, in an attempt to desecrate you fellow man. I call you brother because you are my fellow man, doing life on planet earth. Why do you want to make any of your brothers or sister experience the pain of having one their own kind tell them they are f***ed up beings? In Jesus' name?????
Jerry Brown at 7:51PM on May 2nd 2008
71. If protestants think all catholics are not real christians, and think the catholic church was corrupt, then why is it such a stretch for you to even think of the possibility that the apple never falls far from the tree? In other words, when the catholics were that corrupt, they thought that they weren't. You, of course, know better. So do I. Don't make their mistake!
I can still easily see the extending tendrils of that old, original corruption stretching throughout all the offshoot branches of modern christianity, with very few exceptions such as the gnostic christians, if any are still left alive in Iraq by now. Why can't you? Is it so hard to think that you too might be misled, and need to re-think a few things? The corruption of the middle ages that preceded the protestant schism was loathsome, to be sure. But you think it sprouted there, and then died off? Hell, no! It was ALWAYS there, ready for any corrupt man that happened to come into power in the religion to USE it for his selfish, corrupt ends. That's how it was DESIGNED and re-designed over the years, by very shrewd men that didn't give a rat's ass about God, who could lie and make up stories well enough to fool just MOST of the people MOST of the time. They wanted to have the power to realize their sick fantasies. And it always works like a charm. Islam does as well, by the way, as it's from that same old rootstock.
Basically, the church was started by Constantine, a politician, an Emperor, and supposedly a christian, but that was just his lie. Put yourself in his place. A monarch, huge ego, looking for an edge. His mom's a member of that christ cult, so he knew all about it. So, make it the official state religion (a horrible thing in any time,) kill off all the rest one way or another, and you've just started the longest-running lie in human history. Since it was designed to fool most poorly educated people of it's day, and the poorly educated always constitute the largest percentage of the population, it can never fail.
Oh, and another point about that. The designers of the lie, your faith, put subtle lies in the literature that make it seem like being smart is not something you want to do. Better to be faithful by far. Yeah. Great programming there. If you get smart, you'll see through the lie. Can't be having that now. Read books that speak against your religion and call it a lie? Do you weant to go to HELL??? (Threat, standard manipulation programming technique) Pray for forgiveness for even thinking it. You should be ASHAMED of yourself!!! (Guilt is another great tool, and goes well with Threat))
Hell, they even thought of telling the faithful to be as sheep, call themselves a flock, and think of their local leader as a Pastor, or head of the pasture. It's fucking BRILLIANT!!!!!! I'm in awe of these people that thought of this. Of course, I also hate them for being that EVIL, so EVIL that, instead of even trying to change themselves and be good, they decided to change the world so that their very evil is SEEN as good!!!
Until the whole world reaches a rationalist perspective, and not a religious one, religion will have fertile ground to spread and flourish. Until the poorly educated are the minority. Until ignorance is dispelled worldwide.
Until then, new egotistical religious smooth-talking leaders will be selling their verbal snake oil with no shortage of buyers. Hell, they'll line up for it.
It's sad.
Godless Heathen Brian at 8:08PM on May 2nd 2008
72. Gang - As I read through these posts it has become more and more evident that you do not have a clue what a real Christian is. Yes, there are 100's of thousands that profess to be Christians, but based on the fruits that they bear, they are not. A Christian is a born-again believer that Jesus is the Christ. King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
Even the DD statement that they went to the bar rings of the hypochrist that y'all like to sling about. Before I was born again, I would have told you that I was a Christian, because we would go to a Christian Church, my grandma believe in Jesus, etc...etc... The sad fact is that I was as lost as a bug in a rug. Sure I believed in God, but hey the devil believes in God. But knowing Christ as my personal Saviour is entirely different. There is now the Spirit of God dwelling in my heart. I take no pleasure in sin, things I believe that God does not approve of.
I say all of this because you do not seem to have a clue what a real Christian is. Neither does DD if he believes he is a born again Christian saved by the blood of the crucified one.
As Christians there are many things we do not all agree on, that is why there are so many denominations. But there are some fundamental basic beliefs that we must all agree on, in order to be a part of the body of Christ. Most importantly is how Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and raised again the 3rd day according to the scriptures.
Man_in_Wilderness at 8:32PM on May 2nd 2008
73. In truth, the mere fact that religion is still around, proves that, as a species with such large potention, we're still in our infancy.
Godless Heathen Brian at 8:37PM on May 2nd 2008
74. GHB - in short the protestants came about because the tradition of men was not to the glory of God. A falling away from the teachings of the Bible. Martin Luther posted these issues not to break away, but that they could be addressed, and draw closer to God in Spirit. However as we know, it became a great divide.
Man_in_Wilderness at 8:37PM on May 2nd 2008
75. MIW, unless you invent my Christ-O-Meter, we non-believers still will use the standard definition, if you don't mind. Since you guys all have your "ultimate authority" and are sure you're the real ones, and can't even agree amongst yourselves what a real christian is, then it negates the validity of your version. A christian is simeone that believes they are a christian, since it's all about belief here.
Godless Heathen Brian at 8:40PM on May 2nd 2008