It's widely believed that Charles Darwin lost his faith when he discovered evolution. And many contemporary atheists proclaim themselves followers of Darwin in this sense. Michael Shermer, for instance, writes that he abandoned Christianity when he learned about evolution; finally he could see how there could be design--or the appearance of design--without a designer. Richard Dawkins writes that it was Darwin who finally made it possible to be an "intellectually fulfilled atheist."
In reality Darwin's atheism had little to do with his discovery of evolution. First of all Darwin was never a very devout Christian. He was raised as a nominal Anglican. It says something about Anglicanism in Britain that a lukewarm Christian like Darwin actually considered becoming a clergyman. What turned Darwin against Christianity, however, was two things.
First, several of his children either died or has chronic illnesses. This was probably heriditary, as Darwin himself suffered for most of his life from one ailment or the other. When Darwin's daughter Annie died at a young age, however, Darwin was inconsolable. Usually a man of the stiff upper lip, Darwin could not stop himself from weeping even in public. Darwin blamed God for Annie's untimely death. This was several years before Darwin published his Origin of Species.
After Annie's death, Darwin began to reflect morbidly on mortality, and during his process he recalled that his own famous grandfather Erasmus Darwin, as well as several other family members and friends, were unbelievers. Since Darwin saw them as good and respectable people, he angrily fulminated against the doctrine of eternal damnation, asking what kind of a God would consign good people to hell just because they refused to accept Christianity? The thought of all these people in hell filled Darwin with such revulsion that he completely jettisoned Christianity.
At the same time Darwin recognized that his theory of evolution was quite compatible with Christianity. When the American biologist Asa Gray wrote Darwin to say that his theory of evolution demonstrated how God created species, Darwin congratulated Gray for being the first one to see the point. In England, the preacher-poet Charles Kingsley argued for the compatibility with evolution and Christianity, and Darwin encouraged his efforts.
True, evolution is inconsistent with the six-day account of creation, but since the earliest days of Christianity, Christian writers like Augustine have had no problem with interpreting the first book of Genesis allegorically. After all the Hebrew word can mean "day" but it can also mean "period" or "epoch." Only a small segment of Christians--mostly fundamentalists--are uncompromisingly wedded to the six-day account.
Evolution, however, says nothing about who or what created the universe. Evolution doesn't even say anything about how life got started. Evolution merely describes how one life form gave rise to another. Somewhat comically writers like Dawkins and Daniel Dennett argue that evolution is a kind of master key that unlocks the universe. It isn't hard to see that atheism is getting in the way of clear reasoning here. If you doubt this, go to Youtube and watch again my debate with Daniel Dennett. Unfortunately I cannot also direct you to my debate with Dawkins, since Timorous Richard doesn't want to get into the arena with me.
Darwin lost his faith over the "problem of evil," an issue that has been coming up in my recent debates, and one that I intend to address in future blog postings. It's time to set at rest, however, the old myth that evolution is a scientific refutation of theism in general or Christianity in particular. Darwin himself knew it was not so, even if his dimmer acolytes haven't figured that out yet.
Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 86)
1. Great blog Dinesh!... i'm glad you plan on writing about the problem of evil, because it's something atheists are relentless about, (dismissing the cure because of the disease).
Michael at 1:12AM on May 5th 2008
2. Christians are hard to figure ... today I read a story on woman who survived a tornado in Arkansas in her tub, it was the only thing left of her home beside the chimney. She believes that God held her down and kept her from being swept away with the rest of the house ... it was a miracle!
Course my thought is, wouldn't it had been more of a miracle if God just let the tornado skip over her house and instead leveled some God hating atheist's home with it? He does know his own doesn't he ... wouldn't this do more for his cause than a thousand of your debates Dinesh???
JimCO at 1:15AM on May 5th 2008
3. And what cure is that Michael? Did we all miss something ... did the level of evil suddenly drop 2000 years ago after Jesus died for all of our sins? Dinesh likes to point out Stalin, Mao and Hitler as representatives of atheism while the only instances for Christian cruelty is a few thousand killed in the inquizition or the few at Salem. But I do seem to recall some religious wars that raged across Europe. 10's of thousands of Huegonots slaughtered for their heresey. Jews slaughtered every time there was a plague or a band of Crusaders in the neighborhood. While the Protestant reformation opened up a more than enough reasons to slaughter each other in the name of the true God. And then there was the 12 million God-less African slaves transported to the new world minus the other half that did not survive the passage ... yea you Christians have lily white unblooded hands!!???
JimCO at 1:26AM on May 5th 2008
4. Wow. Dinesh actually got 2/3rd of the way through a blog without being blatantly wrong, only mildly condecending, and kept the hateful rhetoric to himself. It's a cause for a celebration.
However, he falls completely flat on the conclusion. He, like so many theists, prefer to ignore certain facts when they're inconvienient. Like the six days of genesis. Oh... THAT was allegorical. But the part about bludgeoning homosexuals to death? Oh... the bible wasn't serious about that either? How about owning slaves? A metaphor... right... You know, if you want to believe in the bible then have fun, but don't pretend like it's this infalable source of wisdom.
For that matter, where is the biblical reference to nukes? You'd think that, given the gravity of nuclear weapons in the holy land he'd put at least some specific references to plutonium and uranium mixing as a bad thing. How about cyberporn? Like a commandment 'thou shalt not jerk off ten times a day to hotasshoneys.com'? Just something specific that, had it been mentioned in ye old days, would have made sense now. After all if the bible were so involitile it's not like those ancestors could have changed or omited or manipulated the word of God.
What truly renders theism hollow is this simple fact: Religion supposes all the answers. You can not have an religion; any religion, without first making the bold and unprovable claim that your tribe has the real invisible man in the sky, not the other tribe's. Oh sure, theologians might differ on finer points but I have yet to come across a religion that starts out 'okay, we don't know for sure God even exists.' Where is the 'it's just a hypothesis' in the front of the bibles? No. Religion doesn't want answers. It doesn't need answers. It already assumes the answers to begin with, and the most important answer is 'God wants you to do whatever the high priest / pope / pastor tells you to do.'
Science can't play that game. Dinesh says we don't know for impirical fact what created life on earth. He's right. Short of either having a time machine or finding a young planet similar to earth forming life we may never know precisely the mechanics to create life. But we can, through experiments and examination of results, come up with accurate and repeatable results. And the science, unlike static and stale religion, is always changing and evolving. Weak theories without evidence are discarded. Strong theories with sound evidence change and influence other branches of science.
there's a reason why theists hate science... envy.
Somber at 1:30AM on May 5th 2008
5. Keeping things in context: Dinesh D'Souza used to date transsexual
plagiarist Anne Coulter.. Yikes!
Brandy Spears at 1:45AM on May 5th 2008
6. He, like so many theists, prefer to ignore certain facts when they're inconvienient. Like the six days of genesis. Oh... THAT was allegorical. SOMBER
Good point Somber, Dinesh does not realise the danger he is putting his soul in by doubting that God could have done this in 6 days!
10 Dangers of Theistic Evolution - ChristianAnswers.NetTheistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God. ...
JimCO at 2:04AM on May 5th 2008
7. Oooo! Genesis might be an allegory! Well then, D'Stupid...how great a leap might it be for those of us to understand that Creation is not just an allegory, but an all out fiction? Like Johah and the whale? The great flood? Paul Bunyon and Babe the Big Blue Ox?
See, the problem is, someone had to create a creator. And that just happens to be us, the good old human race, too afraid of our own deaths to just let us go gently into that good but empty night.
As for "Timorous Richard," after awhile even baby animals get bored with annoying critters and ignore them. Dawkins is, simply put, out of your intellectual league. Now go find something new to say, you sexist homphobic peice of dung. Oh wait, NEW ideas aren't exactly your forte.
T.Brough at 2:05AM on May 5th 2008
8. #4 Somber -
It might be that Dinesh D'Souza is uncharacteristically less condescending and less hateful this go around because of what was posted in #3 under Dinesh's "Athiest Bashing Week" a few days ago. Even some of D'Souza's Christian supporters posted comments stating that psychologists Chris Aable and Terry Madison correctly pointed out Dinesh's hypocrisy on several points, using D'Souza's own religion as the teacher. Perhaps Dinesh didn't pay attention, perhaps he did. One thing is for sure, some of his supporters sure did.
From Terry Madison and Chris Aable, with additional thanks given to the "Christian" - Eliyah.
Their post under Atheist Bashing Week:
3.
"Luke 18:12 -
"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Important words for a believer, but ones Dinesh D'Souza and what appears to be his twin, BryanCRT ignores in favor of bloating their ego with pride and self-exaltation.
Dinesh writes:
".... have you heard about Atheist Bashing Week? It was Atheist Bashing Week for me......."
....So-called "believer" Dinesh D'Sousa at his best again, when he's not gay "bashing" (his word, and one he clearly relishes) he's boasting about atheist "bashing" all the while still not proving a creator who created itself, that has always been without any rational explanation of "how". Dinesh yet again, full of *pride* and bragging about his favorite topic - himself. He stoops lower with what appears to be yet another sockpuppet proxy:
"BryanCRT"
In doing a quick google search for 'bryan crt" along with " Dinesh D'souza" I can only find few webpages where a bryan crt uses such glowing terms in his worship for the all-mighty Dinesh.
The search hits reveal a "bryan crt" who actually displays Dineh's "Bill O'Reilly style" agression, but in far less self-flattering language under the BryanCRT proxy:
7. "Maybe you should take your head out of your rectum before posting such a hateful comment targeted towards Christians."
- Bryan CRT at 7:30PM on Feb 13th 2008
Like Dinesh, he fails to see the irony of his own "hateful comment".
This smacks of the other sockpuppet proxy "Chris Hawk" who used the same style, syntax and grammar. When called on it, Hawk quickly disappeared and hasn't returned since as far as we can see.
But it's not only the freakish style that's telling, it's the psychology and egocentrism that is sickenly familiar, as its easy to notice trademark Dinesh catch-words that are consistently hostile and militant, with no shame, no remorse, and never the pretense of an apology.
From "Bryan crt" -
".....impressive *hit list*.
- Same combative, aggressive, childish nonsense that the world witnessed from Dinesh's ex girlfriend, Ann Coulter. Since when is a "hit list" an "impressive" thing. If would have no respect for any "atheist", "agnostic" or any religion who bragged about a debate "hit list". Honest people don't need "hit lists". That's akin to taking authority as truth, instead of truth itself as the authority. We have yet to see any "truth" regarding Dinesh's notion of creation, nor has he been patient enough to teach anyone - he's too busy mocking other viewpoints and making "hit lists" or worse, as he put it, "bashing" people. Who's next on the bashing list? Most of the billion plus "infidels" in China ? Most of them don't believe in the D'Souza creator.
"....gone "toe to toe" with the best of the best and has even prevailed".
- The type of eerily similar self-dillusional, self-aggrandizing pat on the back we've seen from Dinesh for years.
"...best entertainment....are your debates in which you decimate your opponents".
- Typical contentious school-yard-bully-style we've seen from Dinesh, often degrading himself to the level of a cat fight with thug jargon added for bad measure
- "hit list" - "toe to toe" - "decimate" "opponents".
How about "facts", "evidence" "burden of proof" "peer-reviewed findings" for YOUR (Dinesh) conclusions and claims.?
One can doubt if the following scripture will help Dinesh D'Sousa evolve towards a spirit of patience and understanding in teaching us lowly, misbegotten "atheists" towards a clearer light to his god. We, the "atheists" to his god who number in the billions the world over. But hope is my only religion, and it is with hope that Dinesh and other self-proclaimed "Christians" think twice about the abomination of self-pride that leads to so much of their psychology of self-deception, which by default leads to the obsession of deceiving others. I would hope that we don't want to witness yet another person has succumbed to the Sean Hannity-like tunnel vision that keeps one's vision so narrowly self-focused for the majority of their life, and that maybe they can give pause to think longer about reason and evidence, instead of bragging about who can "bash" who the most with the less mercy...
But since many here are the "believing" and the faithful, and with special thanks to mentors Chris Aable and Eliyah, who I think would both "approve this message" I site what your own "creator" has asked of you, his followers. Take not that this is not talking about not only pride in the face of an all-seeing god, but pride in the face of everything, including those "lowly atheist" who you hopefully wish to win as friends and influence (?)
Proverbs 30:32 - If thou hast done foolishly in lifting up thyself, or if thou hast thought evil, lay thine hand upon thy mouth.
Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Obadiah 1:3 - The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? 4 - Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith YHWH.
Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of YAHWEH is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Yahweh hates pride. Even a proud look is an abomination to Him.
Proverbs 6:16 - These six things doth YAHWEH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 6:17 - A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 - An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 6:19 - A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that *soweth discord* among brethren.
Poor Dinesh and his ex girlfriend, Coulter, would be "decimated" if confronted at the gates with Proverbs 6:19.
A fellow brother (I *know* we're all related biologically, I don't *believe*) who subscribes to Christianity put it like this:
"Why does Yahweh hate pride so much? Well, is there anything that we really have to be proud of ?? Think of it, Yahweh created the heavens and the earth and all that is within....We must be careful when we say...We do this and that. It is Yahweh who gave us the breath of life. Remember Job?"
Job 38:1 - Then YAHWEH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 - Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 - Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Proverbs 26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Proverbs 3:34 - Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth favor unto the lowly.
Here I am a "lowly atheist" (actually hundreds of Christians have called me a lot worse) but there is hope for me, for Yahweh loves the humble and opposes the proud (obviously, Dinesh and many his sockpuppets and "followers"). Of course, I am being fictitious, for I am not a believer, D'Souza is, and the bible I'm quoting is a the primary root of "Christian" religious belief.
1Peter 5:5 - Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "YAHWEH resists the proud, but gives favor to the humble."
With pride...there is no room for Yahweh.
Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YAHWEH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy Elohim?
Hmmm...mercy, such a noble gift that "Christ" had. Not that a debate should be about "mercy" and "bashing", and not that any Atheist has ever declared "mercy" to Dinesh D'Souza's self-dillusional claims of "decimation". But I suspect these points, like many other points of emotional intelligence and social intelligence, will be misunderstood or dismissed by Dinesh as similar points have been for years...yet...I still hope...with patience for those of his Ilk who think in such "bashing" terms.
Putting other people down (instead of their beliefs which can change and instead of their statements, which can be self-corrected) is another outgrowth from pride.
From a "Christian":
"I've met many a person that part of their personality was putting others down.. so that they might appear better and wise. They might even make false accusations against others.. so that they themselves appear righteous. Gossip often comes from pride. Pride causes strife in our homes." (Me - Terry - and when on the internet, causes strife in the world)
Proverbs 28:25 - He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife: but he that putteth his trust in YAHWEH shall be made fat.
Ummm...I'm half way there with the proud part (I think pride has it's place in all creativity and accomplishments, but "made fat"?? The bible lists "gluttony" as an "abomination" many times. In fact, far more often than it mentions NONheterosexual (or gay, bisexual, transexual, transgender, etc.) sex, which Dinesh is obsessed with. Never mind that most heterosexual sex is not conducted strictly for procreation.
1Timothy 6:3 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words (the opposite of Dinesh's and Bryan CRT's words, because there is nothing wholesome about "bashing" and "decimating" no matter how "right" you think you are), ... 4 - He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is righteousness: from such withdraw thyself.
Luke 18:12 -
"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Important words for a believer, but ones Dinesh D'Souza ignores in favor of his ego.
Luke 14:7 - And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 - When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 - And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 - But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 - For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Even so, it is better to be humbled in this life.. than in the next! For all things hidden will come to light
Before I close, I do want to share a scripture that shows a different kind of 'pride'. (Again, I don't agree with it, but hey, I'm not practicing hypocrisy by stating I do or only picking out the parts I approve of to run my life by).
Jeremiah 9:23 - Thus saith YAHWEH, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 - But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am YAHWEH which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith YAHWEH.
Psalms 115:1 - Not unto us, O YAHWEH, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Poor, lost Dinesh. What's next? A sequel to Ann Coulter, your ex-lover's massive lie about half of America's population "Godless, The Church of Liberalism" ?? You've both been good at lying about the mind of god, as well as the hearts and minds of millions of hundreds of millions of "liberal" minded people the world over. Your tools have been, as Chris would say "sweeping generalizations, undigested slogans and blanket stereotypes". But you manage to even outdue those unsavory negatives and stoop to "Bashing". "Bashing", eh, Dinesh? I trust you've done a lot of pious good with the hours and days of your life (believe it or not, I have probably 10,000 hours of volunteer work for the homeless - just a point I make that all atheists are not half the beast that many make us out to be, and admittedly, I want to do a lot more) but if you haven't it would be because you've substituted your time for, as you confess, "bashing" over and above your time spent helping your god's millions of weak, poor and *really* "decimated" children."
TerryMadison at 5:48AM on Apr 28th 2008
Just goes to show, Atheist and Christians can get along, and even cooperate, if the message of brotherly - sisterly love is more important than their pet sectarians beliefs.
Lindal at 2:31AM on May 5th 2008
9. I think it's hilarious how christians such as DD worship god out of fear of punishment. On, and dude, it's spelled o-r-i-g-i-n...friggin' illiterate.
Steve at 2:53AM on May 5th 2008
10. Unfortunatly, Dinesh D'Souza lies again because he can't defend his biggest lie, a "creator" that somehow created itself. Charles Darwin, in his younger years was very religious and was rarely seen without his bible nearby. Dinesh D'Souza fails to see how blatant his own lie is in this telling contradiction:
"First of all Darwin was never a very devout Christian." - Dinesh D'Souza
"It says something about Anglicanism in Britain that a lukewarm Christian like Darwin actually considered becoming a clergyman."
- Dinesh D'Souza
One, Dinesh cannot measure the depth of "devoutness" that one holds in their early life in their Christian faith. Darwin stated that he "prayed often". It is not reasonable to conclude that someone who prayed often to a Christian god:
"was never a very devout Christian."
Two, in one fell swoop, Dinesh stoops to labeling Dariwn a "lukewarm Christian" while admitting in the same sentence that Darwin actually considered becoming a clergyman.
If considering becoming a clergyman is Dinesh D'Souza's idea of a "lukewarm Christian", then what does that make millions of Christians who *NEVER* considered "becoming a clergyman" ?
The bigger picture here is that it appears that yet another "Christian", in this case D'Souza, shamelessly broadcasts trademark lies which have become so glaringly habitual that the world sees it for what it is - another desperate, circular attempt to defend his faith with nothing more than the blind faith that his lies are real.
The good news is that in his later and wiser years, Darwin had enough awareness of biology and self-awareness to doubt his religious upbringing. That was the beginning of wisdom we have yet to see from D'Souza, who defends his dogma with "bashing", contradictions, circular debates and lies. I use no labels here, but address one's statements on their own validity, or lack thereof.
The better news is that "We are not labels, for anyone can be redeemed from their own lies before their last chapter is written".
LindaL at 3:10AM on May 5th 2008
11. "many contemporary atheists proclaim themselves followers of Darwin in this sense"
I don't care if Darwin was a witch!
not-pboyfloyd at 3:26AM on May 5th 2008
12. "many contemporary atheists proclaim themselves followers of Darwin in this sense"
- Dinesh D'Souza
Yet another trademark D'Souza lie on its face:
I have not met *one* atheist out of perhaps over a thousand who "proclaim themselves" - "followers of Darwin". Darwin's work was only a tiny peeple which over the past 150 years has grown into entire mountain ranges of scientific findings in the fields of genetics, microbiology, genealogy, anthropology, zoology, paleontology, embryology oceanography, geology, etc.
Yet another D'Souza lie:
"....the old myth that evolution is a scientific refutation of theism in general or Christianity in particular. Darwin himself knew it was not so, even if his dimmer acolytes haven't figured that out yet".
No athiest I know, and I've known at least a thousand in my life, has ever stated that "evolution is a refutation of theism". It stands on its own merits. Even WITHOUT evolution, "if you make a claim for an invisible god floating in an invisible sky it's up to YOU to prove it. Otherwise you can't blame people for calling it a fairy tale.
Your fairy tale god existence has nothing to do with evolution nor science any more than the approximately 3,000 other gods invented by those who are too intellectually or emotionally challenged to face their weaknesses, their fears and the inevitability of death.
We don't need fairy tales to be ethical. Observe the cooperation and lack of prejudice among infants and young children before being indoctrinated for your evidence.
LindaL at 3:41AM on May 5th 2008
13. "With the death of his daughter Annie, Darwin lost all faith in a beneficent God and saw Christianity as futile. He continued to give support to the local church and help with parish work, but on Sundays would go for a walk while his family attended church. However, at the time of writing On the Origin of Species he remained a theist, convinced of the existence of God as a First Cause."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin's_views_on_religion
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/cd_relig.htm
http://members.aol.com/darwinpage/religion.htm
... and on and on.
What is with D'Souza trying to revise history?
not-pboyfloyd at 3:43AM on May 5th 2008
14. The "six days" is often used to imply the Bible is not consistent. If the Book is read carefully it destroys the 24 hour day concept. The sun and the moon were created on the fourth "day". Our current concept of a "day" is a "day" and a "night." To have the "day" we need the sun to mark the days. Therefore it is apparent that the biblical day refers to an undetermined period of time and NOT the modern 24 hour time period we use. Think, don't hate.
Yashik at 3:54AM on May 5th 2008
15. ".. since Timorous Richard doesn't want to get into the arena with me."
LOL... I think that I understand now, D'Souza is a 'word Klingon'...
... he ran into trouble when he 'faced off' with Steven Colbert though..
.. the SHAME he must have felt, being beaten by a comedian. But when you think about it, D'Souza is a performer and he obviously wishes to 'trounce' academics since he gets no-where fast with other performers. LOL
not-pboyfloyd at 3:58AM on May 5th 2008