106. Anna, you mention PETA and how they"humanely euthanize" animals. Isn't it a little strange to you that they defy any death to any animal for any reason, yet they kill animals 'for their own benefit'. You say aLL life is precious, yet PETA says it is important that we are willing to sacrafice human lives to save animal lives. What most sensible people are saying is that PETA is to animals what Al Quieda is to Muslims, or the KKK is to the south. We do not need this radical organization. Instead we need people to start thinking on their own.

Anna

Roy at 12:04PM on May 14th 2008

107. Vasu Murti would have us believe that pro-lifer's should be the most staunch PETA defenders, since they are both defending life. Since you seem to be posting your considerable opinion, and since it is based purely on opinion, with a little utopia thrown in, I shall give mine. People are the keepers and protectors of all animal life on this planet. We are in this position because we have the ability(most of us) for critical thinking. Until relatively recently, this meant that people were the shepards, keeping animals on mostly free range, and suing their meat when they were ready to harvest. It is in our nature to be omnivores, and like the rest of the animal kingdom, we eatmeat when it is available. I think it is nut cases like you that give critical thinking a bad name. If your religion forbids you to eat meat, please keep that to yourself. My religion only forbids me to eat other humans, and I keep that to myself.

Roy at 12:27PM on May 14th 2008

108. Roy,

Animal rights and vegetarianism are A SECULAR TREND. The animal rights movement is secular and nonsectarian, but will need the inspiration, blessings and support of organized religion to help end injustices towards animals.

The pro-life movement, on the other hand, desperately needs religious diversity. Pro-lifers should welcome people of other faiths and those of no faith. Not everyone in the United States is a Christian. This country wasn’t founded by Christians; many of America’s founding fathers were Deists. There are other faiths, besides the Abrahamic faiths. There are other holy books out there besides the Bible or the Koran, like the Bhagavad-gita, which also claim to be the word of God.

I also have a problem with pro-life Christians who adhere to a double-standard: i.e., they insist their stand against abortion be applied to everyone, including others who may not share their faith, but then they embrace moral relativism when it suits them, e.g., “Your religion says it’s wrong to kill animals for food, clothing or sport; mine doesn’t.”

There ARE Christian vegetarians and vegans, of whom I have the deepest respect. I don't take it seriously when meat-eaters say, "The Bible permits us to eat meat," because the Bible was also used to uphold human slavery. The Bible can also be used to justify abortion:

Genesis 38:24 says Tamar’s pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at the time. This was positive proof that she was sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law, Judah, ordered that she be burned alive for her crime.

If Tamar’s fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action.

Similarly, Exodus 21:22-24 says if two men are fighting and one injures a pregnant woman and the fetus is killed, he shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted upon her, and not the fetus.

Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums up the passage as: “Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence—it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.”

Can you imagine 18th century Christians telling abolitionists, "We don't need to free our slaves...That’s 'good works’…we don’t have to ‘work’ for our salvation...All we have to do is accept Jesus...Paul said Jesus told him three times, ‘my grace is sufficient for thee,’ ...we don't need to free our slaves..." ?

Or how about an 18th century Christian preacher who tells his followers, “You don’t have to free your slaves…All you have to do is accept Jesus.” ?

None of the religious arguments pro-life Christians make to justify the status quo with regards to animals would make any sense if this were 300 years ago, and we were discussing the abolition of human slavery instead of animal slavery, and I think the same holds true with regards to abortion. I'm surprised pro-choice Christians haven't tried to deny rights to the unborn using the same religious arguments pro-life Christians use to deny rights to animals!

We really live in a secular society. Secular arguments are religiously neutral and are thus applicable to everyone, including atheists and agnostics. The pro-life movement ALREADY HAS the support of organized religion. Instead of preaching to the choir, i.e., wasting time with religion, pro-lifers should focus on prenatal development, genetics, DNA, RNA, etc. to make their case to mainstream secular society.

Again, the pro-life movement desperately needs religious diversity. It's already stereotyped as being predominantly Christian (Catholic, fundamentalist, born again, etc.) and will need to become completely secular as it attempts to convince the courts, legislatures, universities, philosophers, ethicists, etc. that human zygotes and embryos should be regarded as legal persons.

Vasu Murti at 1:29PM on May 14th 2008

109. First off, I am pro-choice, support hunting and fishing, have raised beef and processed it for my own use,watch horse racing and attend my share of rodeos. I support zoos and aquariums and believe equine slaughter should not have been banned. I own a horse, three dogs and two cats and they provide me with hours of entertainment and I laugh at them when they do something silly. Two of the dogs are "backyard" dogs, one is adopted as are the two cats. When I moved 800 miles I brought all of them with me, lock, stock and barrel, literally. According to PETA I am THE example of an uncaring, uncompassionate human being.

Anyone that has true experience with horses (and I don't mean just renting a horse once every so often to go ride on) knows that a horse can not be made to do anything by beating it. It may do it once or twice, but a horse that is consistently beat will cease to do what the beater wants it to do. Horses are very reactive creatures and if something hurts it, scares it, injures it, you are hard pressed to convince them to put themselves in that situation again, let alone daily. So...this negates the opinion of those that race horses are beat in order to make them run.

Git at 2:04PM on May 14th 2008

110. So as an animal rights activist and member of Allies of Peace, do you agree with everything that PETA espouses? Do you believe that consuming meat in any form or by any means is a violation of nature's laws? How then can we stand by and watch wolves or coyotes eat rabbits abd deer?

Roy at 2:10PM on May 14th 2008

111. Every time I saw quotation marks, I just KNEW it was Vasu Murti! Can you not think for yourself? And how dare you equate PETA with the womens' rights movement? How dare you?
Know what? I have my own, fully functional brain in my skull, so I'm going to tell you what I know, no quotes included!

First of all, I have a pet cat. He gets lots of attention and love, trips to the vet for vaccinations to keep him healthy, I had him fixed to prevent the births of more strays, he lives outdoors in an area surrounded by farms so that he can get plenty of exercise and has plenty of little critters to hunt, and I feed him plenty. And PETA would EUTHENIZE my beloved feline companion. Anyone who would do that is on my sh!t list.

Second, I have shot at strays. People come out to my neck of the woods to dump their unwanted animals and these dogs have been known to form highly aggressive packs. Unlike the coyotes, who are harmless to us, these formerly domestic dogs have no fear of humans and have been known to attack children and adults alike, as well as pets and livestock. They even killed my family's Chow Chow when I was a little girl; the kindest, gentlest dog I ever knew and a still sorely missed member of the family. Recently, the problem has been stray cats coming up into the yard to bully my cat and eat his food. After seeing him post-fight, with a torn ear, missing claws, and a gash on his leg, I took up shooting stray cats with my BB gun on sight for his protection. They run now when they hear the door open though, so I haven't had to in a long time. Does this mean that I'm going to go back inside and kill my family? No, it does not.
A lot of psychos DO start with animal cruelty before making the jump to humans, however, if you'd ever lived on or near farms, you'd understand that sometimes, as much as we hate it, we do have to fire on strays. If I could afford it, I'd feed them all, but I can't, nor can I sit back and watch them bully and steal from my cat.

Third, my grandparents own a cattle farm that's been passed down in the family for over 150 years. My grandpa, even in his old age, gets out there and makes sure that all of his cattle are vaccinated, have plenty to eat, are as comfortable as cattle can be, and that the fences are still up and undamaged. To anyone driving by, his cows are the fattest and healthiest-looking in the area. They have over a hundred acres to graze on, plenty of hay and water, vitamins, etc. They're also never out in the road, as my grandfather is very meticulous about keeping his fences in perfect working order. And yes, he used to take a calf to be slaughtered every year (though not in many years because it's very expensive and hard for even them, my family, and my aunt's family to consume that much meat before it gets freezer burnt). I made several trips to the slaughter house with him, both to drop off the cow and to retrieve the meat. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I didn't see any of the animals being abused while I was there. I DID see a lot of gore and mess, but it wasn't enough to keep me from enjoying a nice, juicy hamburger afterwards. I even watched a video on the life of a cow from breeding to slaughtering in my AG class and it didn't turn me off meat.
I also LOVE leather. It's warm and keeps the rain off, AND as an added bonus, it puts the hides of the cows we're already butchering for food to good use.

In my opinion, it's just been WAY too long since you've had a nice, juicy steak. But you don't want to eat meat? Fine. Don't rag on those of us who do. Different strokes for different folks. I don't voice my opinion on the matter until I see you guys trying to force it on everyone else, like that time outside my office when a vegan handed me a pamphlet. I went inside to the cafeteria, ordered a burger, and came back outside to eat it in front of him. If he can protest my diet, I can protest his.

Dragongurl392 at 2:57PM on May 14th 2008

112. Roy,

I agree with PETA's abolitionist philosophy that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for "entertainment."

Which anatomical category are humans most suited for? According to Dr. Milton Mills:

*Facial Muscles*
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HERBIVORE: Well-developed

HUMAN: Well-developed

*Jaw Type*
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

*Jaw Joint Location*
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

*Jaw Motion*
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

*Major Jaw Muscles*
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

*Mouth Opening vs. Head Size*
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small

*Teeth: Incisors*
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

*Teeth: Canines*
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted

*Teeth: Molars*
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

*Chewing*
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

*Saliva*
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

*Stomach Type*
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple

*Stomach Acidity*
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

*Stomach Capacity*
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

*Length of Small Intestine*
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

*Colon*
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

*Liver*
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

*Kidney*
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

*Nails*
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails

Some argue that human intelligence has enabled man to transcend his physical limitations and function as a "natural" flesh-eater. If this is true, then we must also classify napalm, poison gas, and nuclear weapons as "natural," too, because they are also products of (misused!) human intelligence. Agriculture and cookery aren’t found in nature, either. One might therefore argue if human technology is "natural," then human ethical behavior is equally natural.

"I am the very opposite of an anthropomorphizer," says writer Brigid Brophy. "I don’t hold animals superior or even equal to humans. The whole case for behaving decently towards animals rests on the fact that we are the superior species. We are the species uniquely capable of rationality, imagination and moral choice, and that is precisely why we are under obligation to respect the rights of other creatures."

The fact that predators exist in the wild does not imply man must automatically imitate them. Cannibalism and rape also occur in nature. Robert Louis Stevenson, in his book, In the South Seas, wrote that there was little difference between the "civilized" Europeans and the "savages" of the Cannibal Islands: "We consume the carcasses of creatures with like appetites, passions, and organs as our own. We feed on babes, though not our own, and fill the slaughter-houses daily with screams of pain and fear."

Vasu Murti at 3:55PM on May 14th 2008

113. We each have our own opinion, but I assure you that when you take a radical stance, most people will shut you down. To say that animals are not ours for the eating is a radical opinion. Who makes that decision? There are plenty of ethical and moral laws on the books about the treatment of animals. I treat animals very ethically. My pets love me and I love them. And when I kill an animal to use it's meat to feed my family, I try very hard to ensure that it dies immediately, and doesn't suffer a lot. I sure wish guys like you would come up with a better wildlife management system than we have today, instead of complaining about it. Your idea is to just let every species do as it choses, and let the chips fall where they may.

Roy at 4:32PM on May 14th 2008

114. Only a select few people ever listened to the David Dukes, Osama BinLadens, or Hitlers of the world, because they are/were fanatical extremists. And very few people will ever listen to you or PETA for the same reason. What can you possibly hope to accomplish? Do you believe that using animals for any purpose will ever be outlawed? Surely not. There are people who abuse animals, and use them in cruel and inhumane ways. Perhaps those are the folks you need to focus on. You will not be successful in taking on 90% of the human race. You will go to your grave with the same success rate you have now. But then I guess you will feel good about it.

Roy at 4:46PM on May 14th 2008

115. dragongurl392 asks how I can equate animal rights with women's rights.

In her 1991 book, The Sexual Politics of Meat, Carol J. Adams notes that throughout human history, beginning with the hunter-gatherer tribes, meat has been associated with male violence and masculinity, people with power, the aristocracy, etc.

Meat is associated with male virility, whereas vegetable and nonmeat foods are viewed as women’s food. "Meat is a symbol of patriarchy" writes Adams bluntly. She cites a fictional illustration from Mary McCarthy’s Birds of America. Miss Scott, a vegetarian, is invited to a NATO general’s house for Thanksgiving. Her refusal of turkey angers the general.

According to Adams, "Male belligerence in this area is not limited to fictional military men. Men who batter women have often used the absence of meat as a pretext for violence against women."

Adams compares "The Rape of Animals" to "the Butchering of Women," as well as "Sexual Violence and Meat Eating." She quotes the organizer of a "Bunny Bop" in which rabbits are killed by clubs, feet, stones, etc. as saying, "What would all these rabbit hunters be doing if they weren’t letting off all this steam? I’ll tell you what they'd be doing. They’d be drinking and carousing and beating their wives."

Vasu Murti at 5:14PM on May 14th 2008

116. The thought that occurs to me as I read these posts is that some people can rationalize anything.

kaflooey at 7:04PM on May 14th 2008

117. I don't know why you're not only dismissing the fact that jockeys may have a hand in horse injuries and that if a group criticizes this possibility, that they "hate people." If you don't believe in animal cruelty, that means you hate people? Actually, studies show there is a direct correlation between animal cruelty and human abuse and with kindness to animals and kindness to people.Kind people don't hurt animals.Period. PETA may be extreme in some reactions, but some things do need to be exposed &thank God they've done that. And to the person who said PETA should protect animals "who are really being abused" after this person said they wore fur-well, even if you eat meat, wear leather, etc.,there's NO good excuse to wear fur, unless you're an Eskimo & they have alternatives, too. Fur is plain cruel, &you need to do some homework on that on the Internet to see with your own eyes, before you say otherwise.

Sue at 7:23PM on May 14th 2008

118. I am a Wiccan. My community hunt, fish and raise farm animals as PART of our Pagan religion. When we have money to contribute, we go to ASPCA, Best Friends or the local pound to adopt lonely strays. When we kill an animal to eat, we do it with the most scrupulous care for the animal's fear. They are not terrorized and tortured. PETA is one of our WORST enemies. Just Google the buggers and you'll find a million examples of PETA's hypocrisy.
And please remember: PETA KILLS PETS DEAD!

Terrible Tommy Murray at 6:55PM on May 18th 2008

119. People who belong to PETA are terrorists! They fuel the fire with heavy donations to ALF and other terrorist organizations. PETA members should be watched by the FBI at all times. Criminals like PETA members should have no political pull in this country, and should be treated like a child molester!

Gary H at 3:39PM on May 28th 2008

120. people posting about the MURDER of animals need to read the dictionary!

mur·der
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another HUMAN BEING under conditions specifically covered in law.

last time i check a horse was not a person

b at 11:37PM on Jun 22nd 2008