Peter Singer is a calm, lucid and able debater, and our debate at Biola University in Los Angeles on April 25 was lively and hard-fought. Not for nothing is Singer considered a world-class philosopher and advocate. You can watch the debate here.
Singer praised me for not simply making assertions of faith or hurling Bible passages at him but rather for using reason and argument to make my case . And I complimented Singer for stepping, so to speak, into the lion's den. (Biola actually stands for Bible Institute of Los Angeles.) Unlike the pusillanimous Richard Dawkins, who doesn't dare to debate me even at his home campus of Oxford, Singer was brave to come to a Christian campus to dispute the resolution "God: Yes or No." The audience of 3,000 was mostly though not exclusively Christian.
So perhaps atheism has found an able advocate. But unbelievers may want to think twice before lining up behind Singer, who argues in favor of infanticide, euthanasia and (this is not a joke) animal rights! One of Singer's interesting proposals concerns what may be called "fourth trimester" abortions, i.e. the right to kill one's offspring even after birth!
Here are some choice Singer quotations on the subject which I get from his books Rethinking Life and Death and Writings on an Ethical Life.
On how mothers should be permitted to kill their offspring until the age of 28 days: "My colleague Helga Kuhse and I suggest that a period of twenty-eight days after birth might be allowed before an infant is accepted as having the same right to life as others."
On why abortion is less morally significant than killing a rat: "Rats are indisputably more aware of their surroundings, and more able to respond in purposeful and complex ways to things they like or dislike, than a fetus at ten or even thirty-two weeks gestation."
On why pigs, chickens and fish have more rights to life than unborn humans: "The calf, the pig, and the much-derided chicken come out well ahead of the fetus at any stage of pregnancy, while if we make the comparison with a fetus of less than three months, a fish would show more signs of consciousness."
On why infants aren't normal human beings with rights to life and liberty: "Characteristics like rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness...make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings."
In my opening statement I showed the profound connection between Singer's Darwinian atheism and his advocacy of infanticide and euthanasia. Remarkably Singer responded by saying he didn't come to debate his bioethical views! Rather, he wanted the debate to focus exclusively on the question of whether God exists or not. I didn't want this to be a debate in which Singer and I ended up talking on completely different subjects, so I engaged him on his chosen ground.
Even so, I was disappointed that Singer wouldn't stand up for the opinions that have made him famous, or infamous. Our topic resolution was broad enough to permit a discussion both of the existence of God and also of the social implications of the theist and the atheist positions. I view Singer's work as exploring the consequences of living in a truly secular society, devoid not only of the Christian God but also of Christian morality.
So while Christianity introduced into Western civilization the concept of dignity of human life, Singer explicitly says we have to get rid of this outdated concept. He contends that God is dead and we should recognize ourselves as Darwinian primates who enjoy no special status compared to the other animals. In the animal kingdom, after all, parents sometimes kill and even devour their offpsring. Singer argues that the West can learn from the other cultures like the Kalahari where children are routinely killed when they are unwanted, even when they are several years old.
Some of Singer's critics call him a Nazi and compare his proposals to Hitler's schemes for eliminating the unwanted, the unfit and the disabled. But as I note in the debate, Singer is no Hitler. He doesn't want state-sponsored killings. Rather, he wants the decision to kill to be made by you and me. Instead of government-conducted genocide, Singer favors free-market homicide.
Given the connection that Singer draws between atheism and child murder, using the former as his premise to recommend the latter, I wonder if our atheist friends are going to rush to embrace this guy as one of their heroes. Is Singer showing us where the road to complete secularism actually leads?
Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 49)
76. Giving Christianity credit for moral values is the same as giving the English language credit for mans ability to talk.
Jerry Brown at 9:13AM on May 9th 2008
I'm putting your quote in my files to pull out later - thanks. Don't worry I will credit that you said it, it is good.
TJ at 1:56PM on May 9th 2008
77. js, no justification is necessary for anything. What are you talking about?
I'm not at all angry. I am disgusted with someone who professes to be a spiritual person who want to stomp on the liberties of others.
You disgust me.
Linda at 1:57PM on May 9th 2008
78. My wife works in DCYF.
She sees a lot of molested children.
Almost ALL of them have very religious parents. Christian religious.
SO, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT? You're the perps, trying to make it sound like it's us. Go away and get bent.
Godless Heathen Brian at 2:01PM on May 9th 2008
79. Godless Heathen Brian
I have hesitated to ask the question for many months, but it has been on my heart. I did not ask to ridicule, but because in my years of pro-life ministry the women and men that are the most pro-abortion are usually the victims of abortion. I have met many former pro-abortionists that testify to the fact that their activism was directly related to unresolved pain and guilt associated with the death of a child. A woman knows she carries life when she is pregnant. An abortion is a deep wound. God heals all wounds, including abortion.
janesophie1 at 2:01PM on May 9th 2008
80. Let's imagine that abortion is an 'atheist' problem.
According to the 2001 World Almanac, Atheists number:
1.6 million (0.5%) in North America
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm
A total of 853,485 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2001
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm
If we imagine that atheists are represented equally by men and women then in 2001(every year actually), every atheist woman would have to be having an abortion.
Of course there is no DIRECT link between atheism and abortion. There is a direct link between Singer(never heard of the guy) and his views.(big deal)
Here is the 'link' between atheism and abortion.. if you are atheist then you are probably liberal(subtract non-liberal atheists(libertarians and such),
if you are liberal then you are probably pro-choice(subtract pro-life liberals).
Men are not getting abortions(obviously) so subtract all the men.
Only atheist, liberal, pro-choice women who get pregnant have to make the 'damned' choice.
Bear in mind that these women have considered if they have an everlasting soul or not so they'd likely have considered options on whether they WANT to be pregnant and such too.
I don't know the relevance of this but if I were a devout young theist girl who had 'sinned against the LORD', I might consider turning atheist for the period up to and including the abortion, then rushing back to the LORD for forgiveness... I'm just saying that that would be the pragmatic thing to do.
What do you think now, Christobells? Or do you just like 'kicking' the religio-political 'football' around, like D'Souza?
not-pboyfloyd at 2:02PM on May 9th 2008
81. Linda:
I LOVE YOU, despite your anger and hatred. I am committed to the abolition of Roe vs. Wade. This is a cause in which I have dedicated my life. To be pro-life is for me a human and Christian obligation.
janesophie1 at 2:05PM on May 9th 2008
82. "81. Linda:
I LOVE YOU, despite your anger and hatred."
Linda can and will speak for herself here, but your type of christian doesn't know what love is.
brandon at 2:10PM on May 9th 2008
83. LOl, not- pboy, you comment reminded me of a woman I knew years ago in North Georgia. She was a Baptist Born Again Christian, who managed to divorce her husband without his knowing (he cheated on her a lot, she got mad, he signed the papers without reading them). BUT, once she was divorced she realized she could not live the lifestyle she was accustomed to without his paycheck. So she continued to live with him as his "wife" even though they were no longer legally married (remember, her ex-husband was clueless about this whole situation).
So now she was living in "sin". What was her solution? She told me that as long as she was living with her "ex" that she (get this) HAD TO STOP TEACHING HER ADULT BIBLE STUDY CLASS!
True story. You can't make crap like this up.
Kodiak at 2:15PM on May 9th 2008
84. Hey janesophie1...
... there is some dust resettling on your sandals.
not-pboyfloyd at 2:16PM on May 9th 2008
85. These are some of the best responses I've read!
MeL Tastic at 4:14PM on May 9th 2008
86. Kodiak - "HAD TO STOP TEACHING HER ADULT BIBLE STUDY CLASS!"
That is just PERFECT, isn't it? LOL
Now if the those pedophile Catholic priests would be even as logical as that...
not-pboyfloyd at 2:24PM on May 9th 2008
87. Linda,
Alright, #81 was DEFINITELY a declaration of zealotry.
Mokele Mbembe at 2:25PM on May 9th 2008
88. 78. Godless Heathen Brian
I have hesitated to ask the question for many months, but it has been on my heart. I did not ask to ridicule, but because in my years of pro-life ministry the women and men that are the most pro-abortion are usually the victims of abortion. I have met many former pro-abortionists that testify to the fact that their activism was directly related to unresolved pain and guilt associated with the death of a child. A woman knows she carries life when she is pregnant. An abortion is a deep wound. God heals all wounds, including abortion.
janesophie1 at 2:01PM on May 9th 2008
--------------------------------
I'm trying not to hate you. One. Two. Three.
Okay, I think I can type now.
If you wish to use the term "pro-abortion" then I will call you "Anti-Intelligence." I mean, I am DEFIITELY pro-intelligence. Just ask anyone that knows me. So if I am PRO-intelligence, and you disagree with me, that, by christian reasoning christian logic, makes you clearly ANTI-intelligence. Have fun with the label. Now you know how I feel.
So, anti-intelligence JS, where to begin?
I've never been affected by an abortion personally in my life. I am also adopted, and my wife and I are desperately trying to have a baby.
I am anti-pro-life, since it's an evil agenda with a nice frosting of pseudehumanitarianism just to make it palatable to morons that don't see beyond the surface gloss. I am not PRO-ABORTION.
I am pro-freedom of choice, yes. Personally I strongly disapprove of abortion. It shouldn't ever be used as birth control. And never late term. I want to see more EDUCATION of our children, to lessen and even hopefully eventually mostly eliminate abortions. That's the goal. Get with the fucking program, stunod.
I am also pro-freedom-of-religion, although I can't stand most religions, your variety especially. I just value freedom for all, over my own more selfish goals. The American Attitude. I'm proud that I feel that way.
I am am American, so I am pro-freedom. Too bad for you, that you only think you're an American when you're a hypochrist first.
An abortion CAN BE a deep wound. To some people, it's like throwing away a sock. I hate this attitude as much as you probably do. I want to educate people so that they'll make better parents, and more responsible citizens. Not make stupid laws about it when the prison's are already overflowing from other stupid laws that punish certain crimes with no victims.
And as said previously, it's the CHRISTIANS gettimg MOST of the ABORTIONS! Also, it's the CHRISTIANS doing most of the CHILD ABUSE.
Clean up your own fucking house, and then talk to me about my problems. Because as it sits now, YOU and people like you, are one of them.
Godless Heathen Brian at 2:27PM on May 9th 2008
89. I watched the last season of "High School Confidential" They follow high school girls for 4 years - Freshman through Senior year.
Very interesting. The one girl featured that had an abortion during the filming, was....
wait for it....
Christian. And not just any christian, but her family was very much into their faith and their church. It was very much a "life style" for them. And the reason the mother was most FOR the abortion... she didn't want the embarrassment of having a pregnant teen daughter going to church with the family.
Can you believe that shit!
Another girl (sister to one who was profiled) got pregnant and was not religious at all.
Decided to...
wait for it...
Give the baby up for adoption. It wasn't about WWJD it was just the right thing for her to do.
Any questions?:)
TJ at 2:30PM on May 9th 2008
90. Anti-Intelligence JanoSophie1, if you've dedicated your life to reversing roe v wade, imagine how many babies you might have saved in your life if you'd spent it adopting unwanted children instead.
And if they ever do overturn Roe V Wade, I can assume that then finally, you and others like you will adopt the many, many more unwanted and unloved babies of undereducated ethnic christian crack whores with aids....
Godless Heathen Brian at 2:34PM on May 9th 2008