Speaking on background, a source in the Obama campaign admitted to a certain frustration with the current narrative of their candidate "moving to the center" on issues where the Illinois Democrat has always staked out moderate ground. When talking about a gradual pullout from Iraq during the primary season, for example, Obama took some abuse from the "immediate withdrawal" crowd for his repeated mantra that "we should be just as careful getting out" of Iraq as we were "careless getting in." (And indeed, as represented by the "Responsible Plan" website, that kind of talk is firmly in the mainstream of activist anti-Iraq war sentiment anyway.) In the aftermath of Obama's FISA repositioning, the Obama campaign's fear, however, is that every subsequent moderate noise will be interpreted as a cynical centrist tack.
I'm worried this sounds like a campaign floating the idea that they might move their position on Iraq. They seem to be trying to prepare the ground that Obama has always been for gradual withdrawal from Iraq. Here's the thing, almost no one is for immediate withdrawal. That's a straw man argument. So, why are they now bringing up this gradual withdrawal point? I think bending on his 16 month timeline for withdrawal during the general election campaign is a terrible idea. I explain why below:
There is a difference between moving to the center and moving to the right. There is a difference between making tough choices about Iraq once you get into office and flip-flopping in the middle of the campaign. There is a difference between being moderate and being weak. Changing your position on such a central issue would be taken as a tremendous sign of weakness. They better not even be thinking about it.
Obama didn't come this far by running a traditional campaign. Why would you switch now and go back to running the same old conventional losing campaign that Democrats have run for so long? Appeasing the right brings you no political friends. It just brings you justified scorn from both sides. Go with what brought you here, not some cheap old political tricks.
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Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 6)
16. HAHA!!! OSAMA OBAMA IS A FLIP FLOP AND CENK IS DISGRACED
EMIR at 1:25PM on Jul 2nd 2008
17. As a College student, I was once voting for Obama but, now I am discouraged to see first hand Obama flip floping over Clark's Comments as well as some other things. It looks like I am voting third party this year. I am now convinced that Obama is just another figurehead setup by the globalists and masons.
CENK, YOU LIED TO ME!!! I AM NEVER LISTENING TO YOU AGAIN!!! I AM BEGINNING TO THINK THAT YOU ARE BEING USED BY A FOREIGN ISLAMIC ENTITY TO BRING INSTABILITY AMONGST THE AMERICAN VOTERS. YOU SHOULD LEAVE OUR COUNTRY NOW!
Doug at 1:47PM on Jul 2nd 2008
18. A dose of reality is in order. We are not going to be leaving Iraq. Instead, we are going to stuck in Iraq and Iran and the Middle East until the United States looks like Calcutta.
Why?
Because the illeagl bush-cheny Junta is going to war with Iran!
Just like bush Sr. left Clinton with Somalia, dick & bush are going to leave Obama and America with a war on Iran.
The neoconservative plan rolls on, no matter who the president is. A democrat in the White House will just be an inconvenience to our shadow governement.
Captain Negative at 2:02PM on Jul 2nd 2008
19. I think some clarification is called for regarding flip-flops.
You neococksuckers have been saying that Obama flip flopped on the death penalty and gun laws in light of his remarks about two recent decisions by SCROTUM… excuse me I meant SCOTUS, last week.
That’s because you idiots not only get your “factoids” from the likes of Lush Rimjob, you also get your mind-set programmed by them. You automatically assume that just because you robotic sheep ditto heads fall in line with every single neokook notion that the reverse must be true for lefty’s so naturally you think Obama must be anti death penalty and anti gun.
In all truthfulness you can probably be forgiven because after all, as I’m fond of reminding everyone, Conservatives just don’t do nuance.
From The Audacity Of Hope Published in 2006
"While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes such as mass murder, the rape and murder of a child--so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment."
From a 2006 position paper called "Respect the Second Amendment":
Millions of hunters own and use guns each year. Millions more participate in a variety of shooting sports such as sporting clays, skeet, target and trap shooting that may not necessarily involve hunting. As a former constitutional law professor, Barack Obama believes the Second Amendment creates an individual right and he greatly respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms. He will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport and use guns for the purposes of hunting and target shooting. He also believes that the right is subject to reasonable and commonsense regulation.
Philip K Dick once asked: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
To which I answer: Only the Republican ones.
Uncle Meat at 2:11PM on Jul 2nd 2008
20. Uncle Meat or whatever
Why is it when Left Wingnuts attack the Swift Boat Vets they FORGET John Kerry testifying at the Fulbright hearings on 4-22-71, and speaking as the Offical Spokesman of the "Vietnam Vets Against the War"
Uncle Meat you forgot that.
Kerry, when he testified stated how American Troops in Vietnam raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, randomly shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and ravaged the country.
Uncle Meat you forgot to mention that this was the big thing with the Swift Boat Vets.
Uncle Meat-was your father involved in any of those atrocities? You are not upset that Kerry said your father committed those atrocities???
Congress had NIS investigate and NIS found the members of the group Kerry represented, the Vietnam Vets against the War either refused to talk to NIS, were never even in the military, or were in the military but never in Vietnam.
Uncle Meat-that was the MAJOR complaint against Kerry by the Swift Boat Vets, him going before Congress and telling lies about real Vets from Vietnam.
Uncle Meat- and you have no problem with Kerry going before Congress and spouting lies about the Americans and your father who served in Vietnam?????
PS Uncle Meat all vets in Swift Boat Vets group who said they were Vets, were actually Vets. The Vietnam Vets Against the War who Kerry represented, were mostly proven liars.
robert okane at 2:15PM on Jul 2nd 2008
21. Okane,
Dude, you are out there. On one hand, you are a conspiracy theorist towards Democrats, but on the other hand, when a conspiracy comes to light on the republicans, you say "no way". And both instances, you are lying.
My Father was a Vet, and he told me horrible stories how certain comrades "lost it". They raped, they cut off ears, they did all kinds of crap to the innocence. I can only imagine the hell they saw and how it changed them.
The Swift Boats vets main stance was that Kerry didn't earn his medals, oh how you easily forget.
He was against Vietnam. As well he should have been. I know my father was too, and my many relatives and friends that honorably served. A war that couldnt' be won and a war we had no place being involved in.
Sound familiar?
Botts at 2:38PM on Jul 2nd 2008
22. >>Kerry, when he testified stated how American Troops in Vietnam raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, randomly shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and ravaged the country.
Chuck Williams at 2:48PM on Jul 2nd 2008
23. Why is it when Left Wingnuts attack the Swift Boat Vets they FORGET John Kerry testifying at the Fulbright hearings on 4-22-71, and speaking as the Offical Spokesman of the "Vietnam Vets Against the War"
Patriots laud Kerry for his bravery and foresight in condemning a contemptible war.
The people you call 'wingnuts' constitute about 75% of the electorate.
Even McCain excoriated the swift boat phonies for their lying and their pretense that they had proven themselves as Kerry had.
They did not, and your man said so. He called it their 'dirty little secret'.
They lied repeatedly. I remember a medical doctor lying that he had treated Kerry personally, when he'd not even been overseas and had never even met Kerry and was not anywhere in Kerry's medical or service records.
They are phonies for fascism, sellouts in the mold of Karl Rove and they have by their perjury turned the once honorable name 'swift boat' into a common parlance synonym for crack whore.
At one time, mcsame thought nothing more than that of them either, that they had compromised their service, their patriotism and their character for life by lying and assaulting a man who was clearly their better, but now he wants to be president more than anything, including even the appearance of consistency or judgment.
But we heard him the first time. The swift boaters lied. The general told the truth. Incidentally, he knows how to win wars as he proved, and minimize casualties.
The post mortem turtle wanted 'boots on the ground'. Always the warmonger, always the casualty monger.
You'd think a warmonger would want VA benefits, but he votes against them. I guess to the little adrmiral, they're just cannon fodder.
Mcsame's crazy. Who's sane?
Clif Kuplen at 2:54PM on Jul 2nd 2008
24. Iraq is a "Done Deal." There is no "flip-flop" here. Either you believe that Iraq was a threat to the United States and they played a role in attacking us on 9-11 or we hyped the evidence and attacked Iraq just because we could. We didn't find the WMD, the evidence was forged, the anthrax came from America, and we outed a CIA agent. Saddam was a threat, but we went into Iraq and kicked down the door. What came into Iraq with us? It's like complaining about a "Pest" problem there after we opened the windows and doors. What's the solution? Iraq is free or it's occupied by us. Who has the courage to reach this conclusion first and act appropriately? Do we want to occupy Iraq 100 years or do we want to prove we are worthy of friends? There's no flip-flop here. Who has the courage to do what's right? Obama is on the right side, but that doesn't mean he has the courage to lead.
Cecil Jones at 3:05PM on Jul 2nd 2008
25. Of course the swift boat liars lied their asses off! I know it's awful to have to say, and I know it falls hard on the ears, but some (a very few, I'm sure) of our fighting men and women are twisted psychos. My Viet Nam Vet brother told stories similar to what Kerry said happened, and indeed, we've seen anecdotal atrocities in Iraq.
What frosts me about Kerry in 2004 is that he didn't just say the swift boat liars were just that, and that at least he served his country with honor in Viet Nam while Moron in Chief was back here getting drunk, snorting coke, and going AWOL from his cushy Texas Air National Guard stint that daddy set up for him.
Chuck
Chuck Williams at 3:12PM on Jul 2nd 2008
26. Clif
The article was about Obama flip flopping. Why did you write a whole page about McCain? This accomplishes nothing how is this constructive? What is your agenda? Everyone is getting really tired of the "well he did it too". I supported Obama and gave to his campaign. I see now how he is just like any other politican, and is just power hungry. I looked over the lack of experience and focused on his change promises, however I see now it is a farce.We all want change and the democrats have a better chance than ever to take the white house back however this candidate is pitiful. So why don't you stop the long repeated demagoguery and focus on the outcome of this election. I guess maybe it's because I am very young, you sound old and bitter no offense, and maybe whining about one party verses the other is your mission, other than my future.
Looking Forward at 3:31PM on Jul 2nd 2008
27. Robert not-OK-ane in the head or whatever…
That’s Mr. Uncle Meat to you.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head, you do realize that when Kerry made his statements he did not state that every single Vietnam vet committed atrocities.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head, neokooks seem to have no problems believing that another Kerry, Bob Kerry, was involved in slaughtering innocent civilians.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head Why is it that scum bags like you always characterize every military action undertaken by the US as a fight for our survival and by extension a fight for our rights and then berate those of us on the left for exercising those rights.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head surely you are aware that to this day thousands of Vietnam vets regretted that war and that you fucking neocunts conveniently forgot that when Kerry decided to run for the presidency. Instead you allowed yourselves to be convinced that this actual war hero was not half the man that Monkey boy was.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head you do know about Monkey Boy don’t you?
A man born with a silver spoon in his mouth and a golden phallus in his ass. A man who actually agreed with our involvement in Vietnam yet took advantage of his daddy’s connections to avoid cashing with his ass the check he wrote with his mouth. To this day, you assholes still think this cowardly life long proven failure, liar and criminal is a braver man than Kerry.
Ultimately, Robert not-OK-ane in the head, you can’t see the incredible idiocy of believing on the one hand that soldiers are safeguarding our rights including the freedom of speech when they go off to war and then on the other hand excoriating those very same soldiers for exercising those same rights.
Robert McNamara’s folly was a fucking mistake, and incredibly, Robert not-OK-ane in the head, you assholes had no problem with that when you viewed it as Kennedy and Johnson’s war but then as soon as veterans started running for office with that R in front of their names it was a different story.
Robert not-OK-ane in the head, it sure is annoying having to read Robert not-OK-ane in the head at the begining ov every sentence isn't it?
PS.
I don’t now how old you are but I hope you live long enough to see Rumsfeld have his own transformative McNamara-like epiphany.
Uncle Meat at 4:01PM on Jul 2nd 2008
28. Mi Lai was just a figment of our collective
imaginations and Lt.Calley was a liberal/communist
plot.
BOB JOHNSON at 3:59PM on Jul 2nd 2008
29. Young Turks,
That video is funny. Finally, you are admitting that Obama just might be a flip flopper. He has flip flopped on almost everything. Compare his voting record (it's short, so it won't take much time) and you will see that he is not staying true to his votes. He should have just voted present those 12 or 13 times as he did approximately 144 times.
Obama looks like that catfish I caught in the Mississippi River, flopping around, gasping for breath. I can't even stand to hear what he has to say, but I keep right on listening to see if he ever changes to that "new kind of politician".
As far as Sen McCain's military service goes, he himself has not tried to use that. However, I for one think that you guys need to know exactly what it takes to command the largest Navy fleet at the time he was in that leadership position.
You're a bigger idiot than I was when I was your age. At least by that time, I realized that voting for the dude who might legalize weed was a throw away vote. I started listening to what the republicans had to say and my eyes were opened.
I am for small government, less taxes, more power to the states (let them make their own decisions and if you don't like what your state is doing move). I'm pro choice and trying to use that against McCain is lame. He could give a shit. He wants that to go back to the states too, but I doubt it does one thing to change this except he will not allow partial birth abortions nor will he allow the doctor to disregard the baby that is breathing when aborted. That just makes sense to me.
And, wanting to "change" Bush's Faith Based Group doesn't qualify for real change. That's just another front to ensure that Rev Wright and others like him continue to get the millions of dollars that they have received in the past. Note that it was him and his kind (hate spewing, idiotic "churches" that were raking in the big bucks. Guess what, that money has to come from somewhere. Oh, and let me not forget the June 08 issue of the Cherokee Phoneix front page story stating that Barack has weighed in on the Congressional Black Cacus that would punish the Cherokee Nation. What that means is, that he, the originator of a reparations bill would be changed so that American Indians would not have to pay for the "slaves they owned". WTF???
I'm not sure what you see in this guy. He has no real stance on anything. He said immediate withdrawal at first, took flack, flip flopped, and now he's "changing" again.
Yeah, vote for CHANGE, because that is all you will get. CHANGE on every issue (if he has any) and CHANGE in your pocket (if you have any when he's through).
Good luck to you and your "do gooder" candiate of CHANGE.
Personally, I lived through wars that my father, my brothers, my grandfathers and their fathers have fought in as far back as history goes. Oh, and by the way, my son is married to a beautiful black Puerto Rican girl and I'm expecting my first grandchild. I worked to the federal government for 32 years and retired only so I could participate in the election and voice my opinions. There is something called the Hatch Act that you may not know about, but it would be good reading for you. Also, maybe you might want to look at the growth and reduction of the government starting with Carter and ending with Bush. You might be suprised. We can all thank Al Gore for inventing the internet so we could outsource the government instead of downsizing. But, we needed to pay off everyone's buddy to be a consultant and ensure that the "friends and relatives" got those contracts. Not saying it didn't spill over into the Republican side of the isle, but having worked in outsourcing and personnel for years as a Business Analyst, I have a pretty good idea of how it works since I was part of the problem (not by choice).
Now that I'm off point, I'll submit this. In closing, quit spitting on the real Hero's of the VietNam era. This is something that many of them never got over. Oh yeah, and you can kiss my old ass.
McCain is the logical candidate.
Sunny at 4:06PM on Jul 2nd 2008
30. "...maybe it's because I am very young..."
-------------------------------
Run with that theory.
Captain Negative at 4:08PM on Jul 2nd 2008