31. Clif,

I pay the exact minimum in taxes that I am legally obligated to pay by law.

I would pay less but I do not have the connections like your alcoholic murdering idol Senator Ted Kennedy Democrat-MA does and can not get the local assessor to severely under value my property.

Paul Sparcello at 3:11PM on Jul 15th 2008

32. Clif,

You are quick to demean others and claim their research sucks. So Mr. %azzclif produce your research of my not paying any taxes. Put up "weasel" or shut up.

Paul Sparcello at 3:36PM on Jul 15th 2008

33. "Were you afraid you might get a little understanding out of my post to Bobby?"

You mean that scroll-spinner from the other thread?

No, I can honestly say that thought never entered my mind.

bob at 3:38PM on Jul 15th 2008

34. Clif, I'll leave that argument to you on a personal level. I know my economics were fine at that particular turning point ('06) with oil in the price range of 55/bbl which has gone up threefold & food commodities as well.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bobby, the problem was the same then as always.

when you buy anything on margin, the seller can't list money he doesn't have yet as an asset or you get the crash of '29 or '07 or Enron or fannie mae and freddie mac eventually.

That was all that was going on in '06. How much of that paper that was keeping you going in '06 has since defaulted? I assume you made your money, but that would have broken down somewhere past your last transaction. Whoever you dealt with probably sold the loans on too, if they were flaky.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I can't remember the economy being a top issue right around that time but has progressively gotten worse in alarming fashion at an unprecedented accelerated rate.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The point I'm trying to make is the underpinnings were rotten then too and that's why the wheels came off so quickly. It happened that way at the end of the Reagan admin too, and Clinton had to raise taxes to get us out. I think a lot of it is precedented as well, but maybe not all of it.

They may not have hit you then, like in '06, but lou dobbs was getting rich raising hell about outsourcing and restraint of trade and financial deregulation, and he's pretty darned conservative.

Our local banks are ok to the best of my knowledge at this time, but not really if 750 billion will be needed to bail out the fm's. That will create substantial inflation within a couple of years.

What is not ok is the entire credit game in this state. I don't want to get involved but in researching I see problems.

Remember we have lost five banks this year as a nation, and there are some terrible stock problems as well, GM maybe at the forefront. I do see a lot of local multifamily projects that are static or not going up as quickly as they could.

I'll tell you one thing about regulation of business - if business controls lobbying, you don't get what you need unless it's the same as what they need.

when have you ever heard any chartered business say 'well, we've earned enough profit now, so we can ease up on our margins and not try so hard to compete'.

They'd be belly up in no time if they did that. And given that fact, I don't want their means of profit to be supplying americans with functions we voted for the government to do in many cases. I think the fm's fit into that niche.

The reason is obvious - service is secondary to profit or the private company goes belly up. Additionally, if a business is doing what government should be doing and you don't like it you can't vote the bastards out of office.

Look at the fm's - there were two of them since 1970 so they could provide competition and their purpose was to provide low cost housing to as many people as possible, but since Reagan the fm's purpose was to raise the freakin' cost of housing as high as possible!!

That is corrupt and a good reason to stay the hell away from mcsame. He's an admitted supply sider in the reagan mold and his economic policy for each of is is for us all to quit whining and suck it up, per phil gramm - it's in our minds.

What's in my mind is a new president and new controlling party come november.



If you look back at every major financial crisis this country has gotten itself into, as nearly as I know, the cause was insufficient regulation of capitalism.

People understand carcinogenic growth in cells is bad and will kill you, but it's much harder to consider long term consequences when you think you're making a ton of money.

The cash flow hitch you weren't experiencing was being severely felt by the bottom of the middle class during that time. It got up to your level eventually, though.

I don't believe the employment numbers at all. When people drop out entirely they aren't counted as unemployed any more.

I think we have the best shot at breaking up restraints of trade and keeping on an even economic keel if we go back to what we know worked.

That's pages of detail, but it's why I want a democratic exec and legislature for a while until 'normal' becomes more, well, 'normal' based on the past 75 years of our history.

Clif Kuplen at 3:45PM on Jul 15th 2008

35. alcoholic murdering idol Senator Ted Kennedy Democrat-MA does and can not get the local assessor to severely under value my property.

xx

as eisenhower said, your kind are insignificant in number and you are stupid. You prove the latter each time you post.

OK, want to try again? supply side economics, labor theory of value - mutually exclusive or no? Explain your answer.

Clif Kuplen at 3:47PM on Jul 15th 2008

36. No, I can honestly say that thought never entered my mind.

bob at 3:38PM on Jul 15th 2008

xxx

well, ok, how about any thought then?

Clif Kuplen at 3:48PM on Jul 15th 2008

37. hey, bob, if you want light reading, read this paul guy or okane - they're done before they start.

Clif Kuplen at 3:49PM on Jul 15th 2008

38. So Mr. %azzclif produce your research of my not paying any taxes. Put up "weasel" or shut up.

xxx

you admitted to it, then pasted a bunch of crap justifying it. As Ike said, you're stupid as your posts invariably prove.

So paul - supply side economics, labor theory of value - mutually exclusive or no? Surely you're not THAT stupid.....are you?

Clif Kuplen at 3:57PM on Jul 15th 2008

39. "well, ok, how about any thought then?"

When I see one of your posts?

That you've got a lot of spare time on your hands and nothing much to do with it.

As for the content, it's slightly thought provoking the first time around. After the umpteenth repetition, not so much.

bob at 4:06PM on Jul 15th 2008

40. "I'd say fanny mae and freddie mac should be under ownership of the government again. This happened because they were not regulated, nor were the banks they dealt with. that can be changed."

Quite the contrary, Fanny and Freddie were both handed heavy restraints by the Fed after the accounting scandals earlier this decade, they couldn't do sub-prime lending if they wanted to and could only buy loans issued to borrowers who made the proper down payments and documented their incomes (what a concept). Their problem is the value of the mortgages they hold has fallen as the sub-primes and foreclosures haves dropped the market values of all homes in an area and now their capital reserves aren't covering their assets. We don't need our government owning them - just backing them is adequate. The right moves have been put in place. - Read the Krugman piece from today - it's about the only time I've ever agreed with him.

The financial industries will have to be regulated to some extent again, since they can never keep their greed in check. They are getting part of their just desserts by their stock prices. And government needs to watch out what they ask for (trying to kick start more home ownership to where the rules are stretched so thin a child could qualify).

OpenYourBlindEye08 at 4:18PM on Jul 15th 2008

41. Clif,

that's why I offered "big" business should come under the watchful eye of the feds.

Mainstreet doesn't have the clout, noone cares to A DEGREE if you, myself or others go under. We're all "friendly fire" casualties. I don't accept that because mainstreet makes up the microcosm that the so called essential big boys feed off. The reality is in spite of corruption the effect or perception of failure of our institutional giants outweighs the bailing out of them. I think that would piss any reasonable person off solely because we don't get the same benefits. Such is the american way of doing business.

Let me throw this at you. Fannie & Freddie are private enterprise, publicly owned companies. Would we want the Saudis coming in taking over policy of half the established mortgages in this country? They could easily do it legally & they have the means to do it. That would make the Anheuser acquisition look like a movie ticket purchase.

I've personally written this yr. off due to the local economic scene. I always invest on the side of caution though. I'm losing money at an alarming rate but I refuse to play the blame game. My stance is of personal sacrifice at the moment & offering my opinion to pragmatic changes affecting policy to better the overall situation.

I wrote my senator 2 wks ago, no word back. My advice is to dig in based on personal lifestyle. the pendulum will swing. I have faith in what brought me here....

Bobby at 4:21PM on Jul 15th 2008

42. Clif,

Gregory v. Helvering: "Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone
does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands." Judge Learned Hand

You chose not to maximize your withholding allowances on Form W-4 because of laziness,ignorance or both and you invested your hard earned money in Ed Markey, Maxine Waters, Cynthia McKinney, Charles Schumer, Harry Reid and Dianne Feinstein.

I chose to educate myself on the IRS codes, lawfully maximized my withholding allowances and kept my hard earned money in my pocket where it belongs. In turn I invested in Fidelity, Vanguard, Boeing and ExxonMobil. My major money makers of the last twenty five years are IGT up 33,436% (makers of the dreaded slot machines), Precision Castparts up 19,569% and Harley-Davidson up 17,808%.

My system of investing is much more Patriotic than yours, you have to admit that. My money went into financing Corporations that have created jobs for millions of Americans and has provided me a handsome return on my investment.

Your money went into financing the Political Prostitutes Pork Projects that have enriched Politicians at your expense. Welcome to Serfdom moron.

Paul Sparcello at 5:06PM on Jul 15th 2008

43. Botts

The thing that the Liberal Elitist at the New Yorker fail to realize is that I can care less (politest explanation possible) of what they think about Conservatives.

Paul Sparcello at 5:14PM on Jul 15th 2008

44. "My advice is to dig in based on personal lifestyle. the pendulum will swing. I have faith in what brought me here...

Bobby, I'm also praying that come November 4, the pendulum will swing back in the direction of sane governmental policies.

randy at 5:22PM on Jul 15th 2008

45. uite the contrary, Fanny and Freddie were both handed heavy restraints by the Fed after the accounting scandals earlier this decade, they couldn't do sub-prime lending if they wanted to and could only buy loans issued to borrowers who made the proper down payments and documented their incomes (what a concept). Their problem is the value of the mortgages they hold has fallen as the sub-primes and foreclosures haves dropped the market values of all homes in an area and now their capital reserves aren't covering their assets.

xxxxxxxx

I just heard an economist this morning saying that the fm's did indeed float money forward to speculators on bad loans who sold them as quickly as they got them. True, most of their money is in conservative thirty year fixed rate stuff, but that's around 8 trillion. 750 billion is large enough to throw us into a couple of years' inflation even if it's paid off.

Even if that were completely untrue the deregulation of banking created the subprime loans that weakened the economy. Deregulation is to blame either way.

The point is, before 1967 when the federal government divested itself of fannie mae, nothing like what happened now would have been possible.

And the PURPOSE of the fm's has changed. It went from trying to make as many homes affordable to as many people as possible to making homes as VALUABLE as possible.

That is the reason why they should be taken back over by the government - they don't do what they're supposed to do when they're privatized.

Clif Kuplen at 5:23PM on Jul 15th 2008