61. 60. The S&L crisis was brought on by government regulation, not anything the S&Ls did on their own.

Are you kidding? The rest of your post may have been brilliant but that was so stupid I quit reading. You don't think individual coruption and countless money making scams perpetrated by the owners of the S&L's played any part at all?

tmo at 11:56PM on Jul 15th 2008
-----------------------------------------------
No, that was the explanation given to me by the head man at my S&L when he was giving me back my money after they were forced to close because they couldn't meet the changed requirements. He wasn't a crook, a lousy manager, just a nice guy who was watching his business turn to crap through no fault of his. It really wasn't pleasant either as you could hear the hurt in his voice when he talked about it. You name me one business that doesn't have liars and thieves in it and I'll show you a graveyard.

Dedmanrisn at 1:14AM on Jul 16th 2008

62. TMO: Read this, I'll drop the link at the end.

The United States Congress granted all thrifts in 1980, including savings and loan associations, the power to make consumer and commercial loans and to issue transaction accounts. Designed to help the thrift industry retain its deposit base and to improve its profitability, the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act (DIDMCA) of 1980 allowed thrifts to make consumer loans up to 20 percent of their assets, issue credit cards, accept negotiable order of withdrawal (NOW) accounts from individuals and nonprofit organizations, and invest up to 20 percent of their assets in commercial real estate loans.

The damage to S&L operations led Congress to act, passing a bill in September 1981[6] allowing S&Ls to sell their mortgage loans and use the cash generated to seek better returns; the losses created by the sales were to be amortized over the life of the loan, and any losses could also be offset against taxes paid over the preceding 10 years. This all made S&Ls eager to sell their loans. The buyers - major Wall Street firms - were quick to take advantage of the S&Ls' lack of expertise, buying at 60%-90% of value and then transforming the loans by bundling them as, effectively, government-backed bonds (by virtue of Ginnie Mae, Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae guarantees). S&Ls were one group buying these bonds, holding $150 billion by 1986, and being charged substantial fees for the transactions.

In 1982, the Garn-St Germain Depository Institutions Act was passed and increased the proportion of assets that thrifts could hold in consumer and commercial real estate loans and allowed thrifts to invest 5 percent of their assets in commercial loans until January 1, 1984, when this percentage increased to 10 percent [7].

A large number of S&L customers' defaults and bankruptcies ensued, and the S&Ls that had overextended themselves were forced into insolvency proceedings themselves.

The U.S. government agency Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation (FSLIC), which at the time insured S&L accounts in the same way the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation insures commercial bank accounts, then had to repay all the depositors whose money was lost. From 1986 to 1989, FSLIC closed or otherwise resolved 296 institutions with total assets of $125 billion. An even more traumatic period followed, with the creation of the Resolution Trust Corporation in 1989 and that agency’s resolution by mid-1995 of an additional 747 thrifts. [8]

There also were state-chartered S&Ls that failed. Some state insurance funds failed, requiring state taxpayer bailouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisis#Causes

Dedmanrisn at 1:32AM on Jul 16th 2008

63. I disagree with none of that, but to dismiss the fraud and shady dealing that clearly took place as not being a huge factor is silly and sounds ideologically motivated. Which in itself is silly sinces no party has a monopoly on being crooked. I'm glad the guy you personally dealt with was decent and honest, I don't think we'd have to look hard to find anyone with a different story to tell. Then again the best thieves and con men take your money and have you apologize for the trouble of having to give it to them. If I had bankrupted my company making loans to myself I wouldn't be spreading it around.

Dishonesty and incompetence are both huge problems but I'm a lot quicker to forgive unintended consequences than flat out larceny.

P.J. O'rourke(hardly a liberal) has a great chapter on this in 'Parliment of Whores' by the way.

tmo at 4:34AM on Jul 16th 2008

64. Clif Kuplen at 6:35PM on Jul 15th 2008

Modern Liberalism is based on creating victim classes and having as many Americans as possible becoming dependent on Big Government Programs.

Conservatism is based on Individual Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Capitalism and Constitutional constraints on the Federal Government.

I never have/never would advocate 'labor theory of value' as you dishonestly say in post 50. That theory is rooted in Marxism and based on the false premise that any profit made by business owners is a ripoff of the workers.

Now, I have answered several of your questions but you are a coward and fail to answer any questions I have posted. I will give you one more chance to Man Up:
Why do Modern Liberals sympathize with Radical Islam and wish to bestow terrorist thugs with Constitutional Rights, Habeas Corpus and access to the American Court System at the taxpayers expense?

Paul Sparcello at 11:17AM on Jul 16th 2008

65. never have/never would advocate 'labor theory of value' as you dishonestly say in post 50. That theory is rooted in Marxism and based on the false premise that any profit made by business owners is a ripoff of the workers.

xxx

your argument in support of monopolies was that manufactured goods were cheap or expensive because of the cost of labor. You went from there to an indictment of labor unions in general and a dissembly from the topic. I challenged you on it then, and you avoided it.

So, maybe you can make the choice now and in light of that make the obligatory adjustments to your prior position on monopolies.

I hope you still have the emails or URL's or whatever.

To reset the scenario, you blamed cost of goods to the American consumer on expensive labor. Maybe services too since you didn't say. I gave you a reality check with Nikes, which created no response.

For a young guy, your memory seems a little negotiable.

So if labor unions account for high cost of products as you argued, that means the value of the product is determined by the cost of the labor.

If not, you need to make that clear and integrate that with some kind of consistent position if you think you can. I'd say you've got your work cut out for you, especially if you have to look at everything as off or on, marxist or nazi, GM or Ford, Ginger or Mary Ann.

Judgment and analysis is a little tougher than cut and paste. Even some folks with pretty strong opinions here still realize that and some dialog is possible, and some probably can't or won't.

Clif Kuplen at 1:24PM on Jul 16th 2008

66. Why do Modern Liberals sympathize with Radical Islam and wish to bestow terrorist thugs with Constitutional Rights, Habeas Corpus and access to the American Court System at the taxpayers expense?

xxx

oh, and I'm not a 'man' if I answer that? A woman couldn't do it? It's gender specific?

It doesn't take a man to recognize a fool's question - I think most twelve year-olds would laugh at your effort. You'd best be able to handle a deck better than that, sport.

Maybe you can't see what I'm talking about, but anyone with a gain control instead of a flipflop switch will.

If you want to keep everything on the sub national enquirer level, you have plenty of people on this blog who do, but they're all on your side. Spew away and don't forget to bring a towel..

You have about fifty levels of proof to reach before you could make that a question. Rather than go over them, let me just give you a similar question:

Why do modern conservatives enthusiastically adopt the traits of Radical Islam, Satanism, Fascism, Communism, one world government, paranoid schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder and fundamentalist despotism?

care to man up?

I can be very specific about the accusations and I don't need to ask some drudge like rush to get them. I got 'em already.

Or maybe you could just dump the act and audit a couple of more rational exchanges. You might get a little more focus on what you really believe in and don't, and actually be able to contribute an idea with some thought behind it.

Clif Kuplen at 1:41PM on Jul 16th 2008

67. #azz Clif......

Do you have an honest bone in your body? Post 65 & 66 are total lies and fabrications. I stated that State sponsored regulation and litigation which forces Labor Unions on Corporations hurts the job market and consumers alike.

Proof I: VW just chose Tennessee over Michigan to locate a New Billion Dollar Factory so they do not have to deal with Union Thug Leadership.

Proof II: Michigan Legislators are thinking about implementing "Right to Work" laws.

You are an equivocating jackass. You do not post intellectually honest statements and you cannot answer a question with anything other than an evasive rant.

Paul Sparcello at 4:31PM on Jul 16th 2008

68. I couldn't resist this:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Modern Liberalism is based on creating victim classes and having as many Americans as possible becoming dependent on Big Government Programs.

xxxx

like the investors at bear stearns and indymac, right? I think that was the republicans. Maybe you can get some democrat to verify that, but I doubt it. It would have to come from some place other than a dittohead.

xxxxxxxxx

Conservatism is based on Individual Liberty,
xxxx

until the military commissions and fisa acts...

xxxxxxxxxxx

Personal Responsibility,

xxxxxxxxx

like borrowing from the chinese communists to finance tax breaks for multimillionaires, volunteering for service in a war you support, conserving gasoline and energy like Carter did giving tax breaks to people who supplemented their energy needs with solar arrays, benefits and treatment for veterans, GI bill, like that?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Capitalism
xxxxxxx

unrestrained until it breaks down or the leaders are all jailed, then you want a socialist bailout like bear stearns, indy mac and the fm's and whatever comes next.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

and Constitutional constraints on the Federal Government.

The federal government's charter IS the constitution. The reality is you want constraints on the constitution itself like signing statements to destroy checks and balances and the subcontracting of constitutionally ordained duties to foreign enemy nations.


No, that's just drudge from the simpbaugh manifesto and not anything any american government has ever indulged in nor anything you could get any democrat in history to endorse. In short, it's short sighted ad hominem and without substance.

Constitutional government and economic and fiscal conservatism is now what you call liberal, but it seems that anything short of Aleister Crowley is liberal to you.

Crowley said 'do as you will shall be the whole of the law'. He was a famous satanist if you don't know already. He died from drinking distempered cat's blood in a satanic ritual.

Isn't that your philosophy too? Let the market sort out what's good or evil? eventually? meanwhile, if it feels good do it, right?

Clif Kuplen at 4:36PM on Jul 16th 2008

69. I stated that State sponsored regulation and litigation which forces Labor Unions on Corporations hurts the job market and consumers alike.

xxx

and before that, you said that the cost of labor determined the value of goods.

That's what happens to people who can't attenuate. You flip on, flop off and that's probably going to be it. That makes you a noisemaker, like a starling.

So, if I'm a marxist, you're the opposite, and that's a nazi.

Either government owns business and people or business owns government and people.

Either way, all you are capable of is vilification, parroting dittohead talking points and a lot of cut and paste that's over your head and revisionist anyway. And I have tried. You take an attempt to communicate as a sign of capitulation, I guess. You get more psitticine when I try.

Apparently you couldn't man up to my question, and maybe you've learned something about questions there, or at least not to lead with little paulie and the wingnuts in a yoko tobi geri fight.

So. D'ja learn anything? At all? anyone? Anyone? Stein?

Clif Kuplen at 6:56PM on Jul 16th 2008

70. Clif,

You are an equivocating jackass. You do not post intellectually honest statements and you cannot answer a question with anything other than an evasive rant. Military tribunals and FISA laws are designed to be used against foreign combatants.

FDR Tribunals-Gooooooooooooooood
Bush Tribunals-Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20011206.html

You despise their use because you are a pacifistic terrorist sympathizer.

Paul Sparcello at 10:41PM on Jul 16th 2008

71. You despise their use because you are a pacifistic terrorist sympathizer.

Paul Sparcello at 10:41PM on Jul 16th 2008

xxx

call me a pacifist to my face, you little cocksucker and I'll kick your girlie ass. I spent most of my life lifting heavier things than a deck of cards, a poker chip or some poor little old lady's purse. You're a fucking squat pisser, boy and a retired man has called you that.

Clif Kuplen at 1:26PM on Jul 17th 2008

72. Clif,

You are the one who spews the beguiled rhetoric of the Hate America Crowd supporting Habeas Corpus for illegal enemy combatants and terrorist, not I.

You are the one that has a problem with a Commander in Chief using Military Tribunals and FISA Laws when the target groups are a bunch of terrorist bastards, not I.

You are a Pacifistic Radical Islamic/Terrorist Sympathizer. Next time I hit the links at Castle Pines or go to the slopes in Breckenridge, I will make it a point to pass through Aurora and say it to your face. I doubt your BB Sized Balls can back up your Grizzly Bear Gums!!!!!!!

Paul Sparcello at 2:47PM on Jul 17th 2008

73.
DARRYL KINNEY 7301 98TH AVE
UNITD
KENOSHA.Wi. 53142 April 28,2008

MEMO ADDRESSED TO THE UNITED STATES SENATE

I am a citizen of the United States and have been addressing several Senators with the issues and problems to follow
including Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama as well as several others and will in the near future be speaking in front of
you all because of Americans being held hostage by Navy personnel from Great Lakes Navy base as well as by
veterans used to Stalk and intimidate by the abuse of Power of the IRS and the United States Dept. of Justice. I
have been taken out of and kept from employment by them as they attempt a hostile search for money, i have my
phones tapped and computer hacked by government personnel spending alot of government budget following me
everyday for at least 8 months, all my family and past associates has been paid by them to create some ftctious story
because of a conspiracy, initated by the FBI from Chicago and brought to Wisconsin. All of this is a clear violation of
my Civil Rights and also the rights of my daughter who has been questioned and harrassed at school by them, she
is 5 years old. I have had to replace my computer 3 times because they are camped upstairs and i listen to them thru
the vents as they call themselves strategizing but not very well if I hear your every attempt to play on American
citizens.My family has had their cars as well as i have tampered by them in and attempt to get us or me to spend
money, they have raised bills above normal, been in my garage leaving lights on in an order to do so stopped my
emails from reaching their intended destinations and faked as the recipient, they have acted as operators and
fake being the person I called on the other line, I have been told by the police that they would not do anything
because they know who it is which is fither showing the attempt to keep me hostage. I have filed lawsuits and will
continue because I believe even that was manipulated by them as everything and everyone else has been, I have
talked to the security chief after calling the Chief of Great Lakes Navybase, no cooperation, Bush is who I believe
brought this because of corrupt judges from Chicago, after I brought this out to officials. American citizens who are
not terrorist being treated as if they are, I say send some more troops to war since we have so many of them to follow
people around everyday, someone is reimbursing them for this large price tag of surviellance. I see the plan must
be to discredit or in gov. terms attempt to burn me or ruin my career because they have some corrupt people in
the government.
sincerly,
Darryl Kinney 7301 98th Ave. UnitD
Kenosha,WI 53142 262-237-1310

DARRYL at 6:24PM on Aug 22nd 2008