106. Jet, The Church, ie. any of the organized denominations, was never intended to control the Government, according to the intent of the Founding Fathers, but that is to be differentiated from the fact that our government was intended to be ruled by Biblical principles, & that ultimately those principles were & are supposed to do a better job of guaranteeing certain liberties to the entire populous then any secular society ever could.

All of the Founders were believers in Christ, & intended this Nation to be a Christian one, in which no one would be forced to convert, but in which basic principles found especially in the New Testament would govern our society. Thou Shalt not murder, steel, bear false witness, etc.

That is different from a Theocracy, such as the Nation of Israel was in the Old Testament, where people were stoned for committing adultery & the like.

Jefferson’s reference to the Separation of Church & State, written to the Danbury Baptists, explained that it was not the intent of the Constitution for our nation to be governed by any one Christian denomination, but it was the intent for it to be governed by Christian principles as a Christian Nation in which non-Christians may reap the benefits if they so choose by living here.

And no, I do not believe that being Conservative is synonymous with being religious, but I do believe that it is synonymous with espousing Judeo Christian ethics. There was a time, just 45 or 50 years ago, in which the vast majority of our citizens lived by certain Conservative principles to a much greater extent then they do now, regardless of whether or not they were religious. Premarital sex was about 5% what it is now, same with unwed pregnancy, (in spite the fact that abortion was still illegal & a fetus considered a living human being), adultery, divorce, murder, rape, theft, assault, child abuse, etc, etc, etc.

Also, when I say that Conservatives are more inclined to give to charitable organizations than Liberals are, I am not referring to one’s own church. I am talking about other organizations which practice philanthropy, regardless of whether or not they are religious in nature. Such as the Red Cross, Muscular Dystrophy, Homeless Shelters, The United Way, to name a few. And that over & above whather or not they also give to their church.

Also, according to the Bible, no one can buy their way to Heaven with finances. One can only be redeemed from their transgressions against God & their fellow man by accepting God’s Sacrifice of His shed blood. It basically gives people who have lied, falsely accused some one, hated some one, cheated on their husband or wife or ripped some one off hope that they don’t need to be disqualified from going to heaven in spite of their abhorrent actions, as long as they also repent & make a concerted effort to not practice those things any longer. Of course, if they go back to those lifestyles again without repenting, they become guilty in God’s eyes all over again. If you guys have never done any of those things, then you’re golden & you don’t need to worry about any of this, not that you would even if you have.

The Bible would condemn the act of trying to financially buy one’s way into Heaven.

Ryan, I am assuming you are referring to the account of Ananias & Saphira in the book of Acts, where they told the elders they would give a certain amount of their belongings for distribution to those in need, ended up not giving what they said they would, yet lied & said they did when they were asked about it. According to this text, the Holy Spirit took their life for lying in the presence of God (& no, that does not mean the elders of the church, but a tangible manifestation of the presence of God).

Here are some notable aspects of this event. One, no man took their life, nor could they. It was a divine act of God. God often has the right to do what man doesn’t, as the Bible says. “Vengeance is Mine,” says the Lord. “I will repay.” In other words, God’s people are not allowed to carry our punitive judgment, apart from civil law, because that is left to God. Even those who represent God can not take some one’s life apart from civil law. That is one fundamental difference between Christianity &, say, Islam. Or even Communism or Fascism for that matter (for the sake of acknowledging Clif). In any of those belief systems, one can murder someone else in the name of their God or government for reasons which would not ordinarily constitute a capitol crime & apart from civil law, & without a sufficient trial & implementation according to Constitutional law.

Secondly, it was not for their failure to give that they were judged, but for lying about it & wanting to take credit for something they didn’t actually do. That is not to say that every time a believer does what they did, the same thing will always happen. When there is a heavy Presence of God, there is greater accountability, especially for those who claim to follow God. You guys should appreciate this account. After all, God holds those who profess His Name to a stricter accountability than He does those who reject him, at least in this life.

As the Bible says, “Judgment will first begin in the house of God. And if the righteous shall scarcely be saved, where shall those who have rejected God or who continue to do evil things be found?” You guys ought to rejoice that God doesn’t tolerate hypocrisy among those who claim to follow Him.

Clif, I don’t deny that there is a difference between Nationalist “Facist” Socialism & other types of collectivist, Communist, or Liberal/Progressive Socialism. I personally don’t give a rip whether or not the differences, among other things, are that with Fascism corporations control the government, & with Communism or Progressive Socialism the government controls/over regulates business. In my opinion, both are wrong. It is basically corruption with a slightly different angle. You might think that there is a big difference between there two types of Socialism, but I don’t. Corruption is corruption no matter how you slice it, & I think both are corrupt.

A true Conservative does not espouse corporate corruption or tyranny, or government tyranny. Both are equally as abhorrent. But the more relevant issue to me, & any true Conservative, is that Socialism of any sort, whether or not you are talking about Hitler’s Nationalist Socialism, Marxist Communism, Mussolini’s version of Nationalist Socialism, Gore Vidal’s definition, Nome Chomsky’s, or your average American or European Liberal/Progressive’s, by any definition, Socialism is in favor of gun control, even among law abiding citizens, the opposition of Christianity (Main-stream Socialism) &/or Orthodox Judaism (Nationalist Socialism) (Judeo Christian Ethics in general), the re-distribution of wealth & the weakening or abolition of privately owned property by individuals (not necessarily corporations), abortion, euthanasia, & many of the other topics apart from the whole corporate vs. government debate that so many on both sides have gotten hung up on.

Either way, Socialism of any sort leads to a cleansing stage, in which people with opposing religious, social & philosophical beliefs are done away with…, i.e. the Holocaust, the Bolshevik Revolution, & the Cultural Revolution. If Conservatives were capable of these things, they would not want to preserve the right to bear arms for this country’s citizenry. Liberals, on the other hand, don’t, nor did the Nazis, the Communists in Russia & China, European Socialists, & every other type of Socialist in-between.

The fact that this country’s Socialists are in favor of gun control as are/were Socialists of every breed throughout history speaks volumes of what they would be capable of when given the opportunity, which could be a Progressive/Socialist monopoly on all three branches of our government. A Conservative doesn’t mind any law abiding citizen bearing arms, regardless of what their political affiliation is, even if they are Liberal.

Obama has been mentored by several individuals who have actually been brazen enough to admit that they espouse Communism, not just the more sanitized titles of Socialist, Progressive or Liberal.

Winston

Winston at 5:50PM on Aug 4th 2008

107.
Winston aren't you uderplaying the role of the founding fathers deistic beliefs?

Yes I am familiar with the Danbury Baptists. (I am also familiar with the Congregational Church that was on Deerfield Avenue in Danbury which has nothing to do with the topic on hand).

Would you consider United Way a charity because of how it is used to drum up money for itself?

JefFlyingV at 1:39AM on Aug 3rd 2008

108.
Winston would you like to correct me on the CT Congregationalists and the concerns of the CT Baptists?

JefFlyingV at 1:51AM on Aug 3rd 2008

109. Jet,

I have heard that the Founding Fathers were deists time & time again, every time from Liberals who have either been misinformed or want to believe that to justify their opposition to our true American heritage.

Every signer of the Declaration & all the framers of the Constitution were believers in Christ, to a man.

There are numerous resources of countless quotes of their Christian beliefs & overt desire for this nation to be a Christian nation… literally thousands, & probably tens of thousands. The Library of Congress contains most all of these, & you can get reprints of all the original manuscripts from numerous sources. As a mater of fact, whether they were documents pertaining to the foundation of the Union, or formal or casual letters to friends or relatives, you could scarcely find a document written by any of them which did not include references to God, Jesus or the Bible. And I’ll guarantee that you won’t find any that contain references showing them to be deists, secularists, atheists, socialists or anything but believers in Christ.

Is there a reason why you would want me to correct you concerning the debate between the Danbury Baptists & the Congregational Church? If you are aware of that being the source to the often referenced "Separation of Church & State" clause used by many Liberals to justify their belief that this nation was not intended to be, or isn't a Christian nation, & understand where this clause came from in context, I don't think it would be necessary. It sounds like you are aware of what many other Liberals aren’t, so there is no need. Most of the Liberals I have talked to who use the “Separation” clause to justify their beliefs think it is in the Constitution or Declaration if Independence. No foolin’!

The reference to the United Way was more intended to be an example of how many Christians do not just give to their respective churches, but also give to secular organizations as well, as long as they actually help those in need. I am not aware of any financial impropriety concerning the United Way other than what I heard about several years ago, which from my understanding was supposed to have been corrected, but it wouldn't surprise me if you have heard something more recent. I personally have thought that organization to be similar to the United Nations UNICEF program, which is extremely corrupt, & what little moneys & supplies do actually make it to third world nations or situations of need are confiscated by their equally as or more corrupt dictators or controllers. Any way, I say all this just to clarify my original point & we don't go dancing off after some other tangent.

Winston

Winston at 12:25AM on Aug 4th 2008

110.
Winston, It seems to me you selectively quoted Jefferson for your arguments.

JefFlyingV at 12:43AM on Aug 4th 2008

111. Winston, your socialists are straw men and your true conservative is just a true scotsman if you know what that means.

Do you favor enforcement of Sherman and Clayton? If not, I'd say you are as much a fascist as any democrat was socialist. More, actually.

Clif Kuplen at 1:40AM on Aug 4th 2008

112. Most of the Liberals I have talked to who use the “Separation” clause to justify their beliefs think it is in the Constitution or Declaration if Independence. No foolin’!

xxx

When I was a kid we were required to read and be tested on the Constitution to graduate high school. I was even stuck doing an oration on the Constitution in front of the entire school because I took speech and debate.

'Separation' as you frame it is settled law since 1947. Also don't forget that separation exists under article VI clause III as well.

Separation of church and state is both mandated in the Christian bible and American and British Common Law, as well as what I hope would be ordinary common sense, but with this resurgence of calvinism and Burkian ideology, perhaps not these days.

In any case the doctrine is as ancient as law or religion: You cannot serve two masters.

How old are 'most' of the 'liberals' you talk to? This is hardly esoteric stuff since it ought to be taught in secondary school civics or American government classes.

Clif Kuplen at 2:51AM on Aug 4th 2008

113. By the way, you act as though 'liberal' were a pejorative. I take exception to that as do tens of Millions of loyal Americans.

Here's an essay by John Gray it would benefit you to read:

************

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good
clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards.
He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe
to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.
All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because
some liberal union workers fought the ir employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe
gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is
safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing
industry.
Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled
with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his
right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses,
walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree
hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the
subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable
money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable
public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits,
retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and
died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s
employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or
becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check
because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary
misfortune.
Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit
is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s
money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the
depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal
student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government
would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.
Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the
country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world
because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He
was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration
because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until
some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded
rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)
He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his
union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe
wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.
He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and
conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought
against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We
don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man
who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.

By John Gray

...Just in case you or anyone else reading has some mistaken impression of what Liberalism has done for this country besides win all the wars.

Clif Kuplen at 2:57AM on Aug 4th 2008

114. I'm the second oldest of 4 kids. I'm 45, married almost 15 yrs and childless by choice. People treat me like a total freak when I tell them not only do I not have kids, I also have never wanted any. I can't understand why anyone would want more than 2 kids. I can even understand 3 or 4. But 6, 10, 15, etc., is just plain crazy. I guess for me there's more to life than lying on my back screwing all the time and spending my whole life being pregnant. Or, raising a bunch of kids. These people need to get a life outside the bedroom!

Victoria C at 12:48PM on Aug 4th 2008

115. A friend of mine became a widow very unexpectedly one year after having her ninth child. It has been a terrible struggle for her and the children over the years. Even though they are grown now-some are still living at home, all have no college educations, there hasn't been any health insurance for them, they have not been able to find any decent paying jobs, and now they are losing their home which over the years has lost a lot of value due to the decline of the area. Also, they are victims of the mortgage crisis. Her youngest son, 17 at the time,a year and a half ago, was murdered outside the house by gang members from another area..she works as much as possible in a low paying part time job and is now in her 60's. It's nice to imagine a large, happy, successful family where everyone is healthy, and smart, and being the beneficiaries of parents having good paying jobs with health plans and plenty of money put away for college educations so that someday when the time is right --those children would be like their parents. In today's society-- it's not impossible but, more and more, it's unlikely that Life would be that kind to a very large family. Also,for the rest of us , it is not a gift for us when we have to have our taxes used to provide healthcare, housing,and education for irresponsible people who multiply just for the fun of it and then cannot handle the responsibility of parenthood. Imagine the eco damage for over- procreating as well. We are using up our resources so fast, it's frightening.

Pris at 4:42PM on Aug 4th 2008

116. Winston, that is typical anti liberal psychosis. You cannot name a single Democrat running for office anywhere that espouses any of that crap.

Where are you on health care, education, lending regulation, anti monopoly regulation, tax based on use of Commons, expansionism, Iraq, Afghanistan, permission of american corporations to relocate to avoid taxes?

These are liberal or conservative issues. Your continued attempt to label liberals as fascists and nazis and communists and atheists and whatever I missed all a the same time is so far pointless.

Do you favor anything? I see no beginning middle or end to your statements other than boilerplate anti liberal straw men so many of you bought parts for somewhere. Maybe you should summarize.

Clif Kuplen at 11:17PM on Aug 4th 2008

117. Every signer of the Declaration & all the framers of the Constitution were believers in Christ, to a man.

xxx

Aha! Then you cannot deny that their construction of the constitution and later the bill of rights, which studiously avoided referenced to the supernatural was both deliberate and measured with full awareness that personal beliefs had no place in the document.

This is the true compelling argument - that these people could have created a religious oligarchy and they did *not* in a very premeditated way that is still clear after all this time with very little case law needed for interpretation.

Everson v. Board of Education has been settled law for 61 years.

Clif Kuplen at 11:22PM on Aug 4th 2008

118. The question is how many children who come from large families have large families. Those I know do not have large families.

Judy Egendorf at 12:00AM on Aug 5th 2008

119. Jet & Clif,

The Separation of Church & State was intended to prevent a specific denomination from solely imposing governance upon the People, not to prevent our nation from being governed by Judeo Christian & Biblical Principles as a Christian nation.

Find me some of Jefferson's writings justifying your position. Here are some that justify mine.

John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

John Quincy Adams

Sixth President of the United States

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)

There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.

(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)

Samuel Adams

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

(Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams (Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

Fisher Ames

Framer of the First Amendment

Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.

(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

Oliver Ellsworth

Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court

[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion.

(Source: Connecticut Courant, June 7, 1802, p. 3, Oliver Ellsworth, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut)

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

(Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787. )

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)

* For more details on this quote, click here.

Thomas Jefferson

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States

Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, DC: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 5, pp. 82-83, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr on August 19, 1785.)

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)

I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.

(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)

Richard Henry Lee

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people.

(Source: Richard Henry Lee, The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

James McHenry

Signer of the Constitution

[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)

Jedediah Morse

Patriot and "Father of American Geography"

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.

(Source: Jedidiah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1799), p. 9.)

William Penn

Founder of Pennsylvania

[I]t is impossible that any people of government should ever prosper, where men render not unto God, that which is God's, as well as to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.

(Source: Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania, 1682. Written by William Penn, founder of the colony of Pennsylvania.)

Pennsylvania Supreme Court

No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.

(Source: Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1824).)

Benjamin Rush

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)

We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)

By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 1:18]

(Source: Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)

Remember that national crimes require national punishments, and without declaring what punishment awaits this evil, you may venture to assure them that it cannot pass with impunity, unless God shall cease to be just or merciful.

(Source: Benjamin Rush, An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America Upon Slave-Keeping (Boston: John Boyles, 1773), p. 30.)

Joseph Story

Supreme Court Justice

Indeed, the right of a society or government to [participate] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state and indispensable to the administrations of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion—the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to Him for all our actions, founded upon moral accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues—these never can be a matter of indifference in any well-ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive how any civilized society can well exist without them.

(Source: Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1847), p. 260, §442.)

George Washington

"Father of Our Country"

While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

(Source: George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)

[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.

(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)

* For the full text of Geo. Washington's Farewell Address, click here.

Daniel Webster

Early American Jurist and Senator

[I]f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity.

(Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. XIII, p. 492. From "The Dignity and Importance of History," February 23, 1852.)

Noah Webster

Founding Educator

The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.

(Source: Noah Webster, History of the United States, "Advice to the Young" (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 338-340, par. 51, 53, 56.)

James Wilson

Signer of the Constitution

Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both.

(Source: James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)

Robert Winthrop

Former Speaker of the US House of Representatives

Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.

(Source: Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")

Winston at 3:31AM on Aug 6th 2008

120.
Winston you lost me. Are you stating that the U.S. is a christian nation and is founded as a christian nation?

I'm being selective here, but what does William Penn have to do with the seperation of church and state?

Once again, Jefferson wasn't a deist? Jefferson was a hard core bible thumping evangelical?

JefFlyingV at 4:12AM on Aug 6th 2008