What is the source of that liberty, equality and fraternity that are now the guiding principles of the West, if not the modern world?
Historians note the anomaly that these principles originated and developed only in Western civilization. In this sense, they are not universal. Of late, however, these principles are being exported to the rest of the world. One may say they are Western in origin but universal in their application.
But where do the principles come from? With the death of Heidegger and Sartre, Jurgen Habermas is now regarded as perhaps our leading living philosopher. Habermas is also an atheist. Yet when Habermas found out that the European Union in its charter gave full acknowledgement to ancient Greece and Rome, but none to Christianity, he erupted in learned outrage.
Habermas's argument is that it is philosophically illiterate to locate the roots of the West in Athens but not in Jerusalem. In fact, Habermas argues that Jerusalem--by which he means Judaism and Christianity--is far more responsible than Athens for the modern principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. In "A Time of Transition," Habermas writes:
For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love.
Habermas's point is that there is too much arrogance in contemporary atheism. Even the atheist is standing on mountain erected by Christianity. How ungrateful it is to scorn the mountain that is still holding you up! How ridiculous the posture of the man who cannot acknowledge the very foundation that sustains him from below!
This is what Christians mean when they say that America is a Christian society. This is not a call for theocracy or "rule of the priests" but rather a call for a public acknowledgement of the historic role of Christianity in shaping our institutions, our values and our culture. The opinions of several leading Supreme Court justices on church-and-state issues would benefit greatly from a slight familiarity with the history that Habermas is talking about.
Habermas's argument would have struck a chord with the greatest atheist of modern times, the philosopher Nietzsche. Nietzsche argued that if you want to get rid of the Christian God, at least have the honesty and the guts to repudiate the Christian ideals of human dignity, human equality and human liberty.
Yet our village atheists want to have it both ways. They want to reject God but preserve at least certain core aspects of the Christian legacy. Nietzsche would have had nothing but scorn for these little men of unbelief, Lilliputians hurling their tiny javelins at the Christian God while they continue to live off His inheritance.
Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 29)
1. DoubleD your post is as lame as modern miracles. Christian roots of the west would be asian (Middle Eastern). Would these core values of liberty, equality and fraternity exist if not for trhe force of arms that produced the Magna Carta, Martin Luthers stance of reforming the Catholic Church and breaking Romes monopoly on Christianity in Europe, the American Revolution that broke away from Britains monopoly on trade, Frances Revolution, the immigrants from the failed revolutions of central Europe. If anything, liberty, equality and fraternity were won with arms despite the recalcitrance of the church dininely giving these rights to man. You give too much credit to your church which was anti what you espouse.
JefFlyingV at 1:17AM on Aug 7th 2008
2. Fairness requires us to acknowledge the role of Judeo-Christian beliefs in the history of Western thought.
Now if we can just get D'Souza to acknowledge the Roman, Sumerian, etc. influences that helped shape Hebrew and Christian belief structures, some progress might be made.
Skeptic at 1:25AM on Aug 7th 2008
3.
Double if anything you are trying to convince us to open the eggs from the large side. Freedom of thought was not meant for the common man throughout the churches history. If anything the church is a late comer to espousing rights for humanity, granted the few Jesuits that arrived in Mexico shortly after the Aztecs were defeated by the
Spaniards were humanitarians, but how long were they allowed to stay in the newly acquired empire of the New World? And How typical were these humanitarian Jesuits in influencing Rome?
JefFlyingV at 1:33AM on Aug 7th 2008
4. No serious intellectual or scholar denies that the essence of "the West" is an amalgam of Graeco-Roman and Christian ideas. The only deniers are the little straw men that Dinesh D'Souza constructs to knock down so that he can then tout himself (ad nauseam) as the foremost defender of Christendom.
However, just because Christian ideas are a key foundation of "the West" does not prove that Christianity is true, anymore than the fact that ancient Greek philosophy is another key foundation proves that the Greek gods are real.
Logician at 1:38AM on Aug 7th 2008
5. Post #1, 2nd to last sentence 'dininely' shoud be divinely.
JefFlyingV at 1:40AM on Aug 7th 2008
6. must have been those christian greeks who came up with democracy and fraternity, zeus is just jesus written really sloppily right d'oucheza
dieter at 1:57AM on Aug 7th 2008
7.
Personal liberty is NOT a christian invention .
mac at 2:13AM on Aug 7th 2008
8. "The first is that Nietzsche is a rabid atheist. Not only does Nietzsche declate that "God is dead" but he also insists that Western society must rid itself of all vestiges of Christian morality."- DD June 22 2008
"Yet our village atheists want to have it both ways. They want to reject God but preserve at least certain core aspects of the Christian legacy. Nietzsche would have had nothing but scorn for these little men of unbelief, Lilliputians hurling their tiny javelins at the Christian God while they continue to live off His inheritance." - DD August 7 2008
-----------------------------
Does the word continuity mean anything to this man?
Which is it Dinesh?
Does Nietzche believe atheists are fooloish, or does Nietzche believe christians are foolish?
Actually, he is dead....I doubt he thinks anything !
mac at 2:42AM on Aug 7th 2008
9. This is what Christians mean when they say that America is a Christian society. This is not a call for theocracy or "rule of the priests" but rather a call for a public acknowledgement of the historic role of Christianity in shaping our institutions, our values and our culture.
O.K. fine you win if thats all you want I shall officially recognize publically that Christianity had a role in shaping our institutions(republicans, neo cons), our values(slavery, homophobia, war) and our culture(fox news,reality T.V., tabloids).
Happy? Good, now recognize most of it is outdated and just plain silly mythology and that the good parts are present in just about every belief system ever.
tmo at 2:43AM on Aug 7th 2008
10. Something else to think about.
Why did the creator of the entire universe need to impregnate a human female? Why didn't he just create his son like he did everything else? If the world could be created in six days how long would one simple human take?
(I really don't care myself I'm jusat hoping for incorherent bible verse quotations and name calling)
tmo at 2:51AM on Aug 7th 2008
11. I meant 'just' I'm not sure jusat is a real word.
My real name of course is Brandon Mylenek.
tmo at 2:56AM on Aug 7th 2008
12. This is solely for The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. I'm glad that you may be finally responding to my comments. Anyone who answers in support of The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza is an idiot just so you know in advance.
"What is the source of that liberty, equality and fraternity that are now the guiding principles of the West, if not the modern world?" - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
The source of liberty, equality and fraternity that are the guiding principles of people is the innate freedom inherent in the natural universe! It is our desire to be free of totalitarian systems of control that religions represent!!! That governments represent!!! That evil doers such as Bush and Regan and their supporters like The Dinesh D'Souza represent!!!
"Historians note the anomaly that these principles originated and developed only in Western civilization. In this sense, they are not universal. Of late, however, these principles are being exported to the rest of the world. One may say they are Western in origin but universal in their application." - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
You've got it wrong. These principles are innate within sentient living organisms where ever they may live.
"But where do the principles come from?" - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
Nature, non-supernatural Nature! You ask such basic questionst oh great one. What is amazing to me is that you fail to even grasp the basics of these questions and objective reality where you The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza actually exist.
"With the death of Heidegger and Sartre, Jurgen Habermas is now regarded as perhaps our leading living philosopher. Habermas is also an atheist. Yet when Habermas found out that the European Union in its charter gave full acknowledgement to ancient Greece and Rome, but none to Christianity, he erupted in learned outrage." - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
So the fuck what? Who cares? It's not relevant to whether or not gods exist immaterially or materially or not, oh great winer you. Poor you, some englightened Europeans decided not to include your CULT in their declaration. I'm glad they didn't!
"Habermas's argument is that it is philosophically illiterate to locate the roots of the West in Athens but not in Jerusalem. In fact, Habermas argues that Jerusalem--by which he means Judaism and Christianity--is far more responsible than Athens for the modern principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. In "A Time of Transition," Habermas writes:" - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
What is the wine of the day? The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza is the winer of the day! Hear the violins playing.
"For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love." - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
Christianity has functioned as a massive brake on the progress of humanity with influences going way beyond what they deserve. Their evil and vile actions throught the ages has contributed to the retardation of humanity. Epunge the Catholic Church. Charge them and The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza with Crimes Against Humanity!!!
"Habermas's point is that there is too much arrogance in contemporary atheism. Even the atheist is standing on mountain erected by Christianity. How ungrateful it is to scorn the mountain that is still holding you up! How ridiculous the posture of the man who cannot acknowledge the very foundation that sustains him from below!" - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
What? I'd not stand on your puke mountain! You guys have done more to retard civilization than anyone except the evil and vile communists which isn't far from your utopian nihilism.
"This is what Christians mean when they say that America is a Christian society. This is not a call for theocracy or "rule of the priests" but rather a call for a public acknowledgement of the historic role of Christianity in shaping our institutions, our values and our culture. The opinions of several leading Supreme Court justices on church-and-state issues would benefit greatly from a slight familiarity with the history that Habermas is talking about." - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
You just want the "call" to support your continued corrupt rule oh demented one The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza.
"Habermas's argument would have struck a chord with the greatest atheist of modern times, the philosopher Nietzsche. Nietzsche argued that if you want to get rid of the Christian God, at least have the honesty and the guts to repudiate the Christian ideals of human dignity, human equality and human liberty." - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
No, it doesn't strick a chord with me and I'm considered the greatest atheist thinking of all times!!! '--) You've just not heard much from me, not even these past few months is much from me yet oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza.
"Yet our village atheists want to have it both ways. They want to reject God but preserve at least certain core aspects of the Christian legacy. Nietzsche would have had nothing but scorn for these little men of unbelief, Lilliputians hurling their tiny javelins at the Christian God while they continue to live off His inheritance. " - The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza
I don't want to reject God oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. Mythical gods (i.e. god) simply are impossible by first principles of the laws of Nature. Sure I'd love there to be a god to privide me with anything I want at anytime or to at least give me an everlasting afterlive even in the utopitan nihilistic heaven where the only thing to eat is Philidelphia Creme Cheese. Ick.
That's right I reject god since all he'd feed me in heaven is Philidelphia Cream Cheese!!! ;--)
Nietzsche said that the christian heaven is a nihilistic heaven! That's what you believe in, Nietzsche's nihilistic heaven. You simply reject objective reality The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza.
I simply reject fantasies and embrace what is real oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. I think I come out the winner since your demented delusions of mythical gods won't save you or me from eternal not-afterlife.
You amaze me oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. I can't wait to confront you in person and challenge your deepest held beliefs oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. You're worse than pathetic. That is why crushing you with simple statments of the laws of Nature will be so enjoyable.
Come out oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. I challenge you to actually engage us in the debate! Stop with your wining about how great christianity is. Embrace and admit the crimes of chritianity!!! Don't ignore them, embrace them fully oh The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza!!!
Failure to reply will be taken as acceptance by you that your mythical gods don't exist materially or immaterially! ;--)
I call you out! I haunt you for I speak for what is real!!! Boo!
If you are NOT The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza don't even bother replying. This is only for The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza.
Peter at 3:45AM on Aug 7th 2008
13. "Why did the creator of the entire universe need to impregnate a human female?"
It (god) is a pervert. Inter species sex. Mixing gods with humans. Really. Isn't that bestiality or something? What a sick mythical god!
Peter at 3:47AM on Aug 7th 2008
14. "Actually, he is dead....I doubt he thinks anything!" - mac
Actually he is dead and without any doubt whatsoever he can't think anything since his brain has turned to mush and rotted and been eaten by bacteria and bugs. Unless it was stored in a jar in preservative like Einsteins brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_brain). But still they don't think thoughts since they are dead as a dead parrot.
Get with it oh great The Delusional Demented Dinesh D'Souza. Give up your futile hankerings for mythical gods to stroke your libido. Just stroke it without any need for gods. It feels better as there is no guilt!!!
Peter at 3:51AM on Aug 7th 2008
15. I thought you went to Dartmouth Dinesh? The roots of "Western" concepts like Democracy, the Republic, and the Western legal systems lie with those zany, Pagan, Greeks and Romans. Did you get into Dartmouth as part of an affirmative action program for South Asians? Perhaps that's taught a lower level of education, I know that I first heard about it (in a classroom) while I was in Jr. High School. It seems that they never bothered teaching you about Western History back at the mission school. If that's the case, you should have taken a few courses in Western Civ. while you were at Dartmouth if you were planning on posing as an expert on the subject after graduation.
Ed W. at 6:07AM on Aug 7th 2008