Is there morality without God? This was the topic which I debated with Princeton philosopher Peter Singer on the Riz Khan show on Al-Jazeera Monday. The segment is now up on the web and you can watch it here.
No, I haven't signed on as an Al-Jazeera regular. But the producers of the Riz Khan show on that network seemed a bit disappointed when Richard Dawkins agreed to appear on their show but then threw a tantrum when he found out he was scheduled to debate me. Instead Dawkins insisted on separate segments, with him going second, so that I wouldn't have a chance to challenge his arguments.
Singer is a much braver soul, and truth be told, he strikes me as more articulate and versatile than Dawkins. I suspect the only reason Singer isn't more of an atheist hero is because his social positions are so controversial. Basically Singer has declared that newborns have no rights and can be killed off during the first few weeks of their life, and he would vastly liberalize the rules for infanticide and euthanasia. Singer and I will be debating all this on December 3 at Princeton University. By all means come, but perhaps you should leave the grandparents at home.
In the Al-Jazeera exchange, Singer echoed a theme sounded by some of the street interviews: we don't need God to be good. And in this sense, who can disagree? Of course atheists can be kind and truthful and keep their oaths and contracts. No one is saying that Christians have a monopoly on virtue, or that unbelievers are incapable of it.
Rather, the deeper point is that morality seems built into human nature, and it doesn't have an adequate Darwinian explanation. Singer, an ardent Darwinist, admits this. He said on the show that evolution tells us what we are but it doesn't tell us anything about how we should be. Dawkins too writes that he is Darwinian in his biology but anti-Darwinian in his ethics. According to Dawkins, biology programs selfishness into our genes but we can rise above all that and behave unselfishly. Yet as I pointed out on the show, ants and cheetahs cannot do this. It makes no sense to say, "Bad cheetah! You shouldn't chase after that nice antelope." So where do we evolved primates get this other capacity that frequently operates against our self-interest? This is at least worth reflecting on.
One caller provoked Singer's derision by suggesting that even atheist philosophers get their morality from religion. Singer responded that this was factually wrong. He noted that John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham weren't religious. True, but their utilitarianism is based on the principle of equal respect for human beings, and that is a principle that came into the West because of Christianity. Singer attempted to deny this. He tried to locate this Western egalitarianism in Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, but he offered nothing to substantiate this far-fetched claim. If there were historians watching the show, I am sure they were shaking their heads. Certainly the American founders didn't get "all men are created equal" from the sayings of Epictetus or the meditations of Aurelius. By their own account, they attributed our egual dignity and our inalienable rights to the "Creator."
I'm looking forward to exploring this topic in greater detail with Singer on his home campus in December. But before that, I have my third debate with Christopher Hitchens coming up September 10 in St. Louis. As Hitchens himself put it, all our debates are different because each time we get better at countering what the other guy said the last time. If you'd like to find out more and get tickets, you can do so here.
Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 28)
1.
DoubleD there is morality without a deity.
JefFlyingV at 2:19PM on Aug 14th 2008
2. "Rather, the deeper point is that morality seems built into human nature, and it doesn't have an adequate Darwinian explanation."
I'm no Darwinist (no one is actually), but it seems to me a moral code would help a tribe function more harmoniously and thus be more successful. Tribes became city-states, city-states became nations, etc...
Also, this is the dumbest analogy I think I've ever seen...
"Bad cheetah! You shouldn't chase after that nice antelope."
"Evolved primates" kill and an eat members of other species all the time. And cheetahs care for their own young, etc... Just dumb.
I think I'll eat a chunk of cow tonight.
Ryan Anderson at 2:28PM on Aug 14th 2008
3. Two words: Native Americans. They had no concept in the Christian god, yes they were spiritual, but they were pagans. They worshiped animals, grass, the sky, and the stars. They were probably more moral than we are today.
Morality had to exist in some form before Christianity and certainly before the Abrahamic religions. Why do the judeo-christians claim to be the exporters of morality?
And a better question is, who and what is morality? Which set of morals do we follow? Do we all follow the exact same set?
MajorCack at 2:47PM on Aug 14th 2008
4.
There has never been a god, yet there is morality. Morality must be a social survival skill, not an instinct.
JefFlyingV at 3:07PM on Aug 14th 2008
5. Dinesh's logic is so flawed, I can't help but respond. First, to state that morality can't exist without god is absurd. Define morality? Are your morals and values systems the same as your blood thirsty predecessors of the 12th or 15th centuries? Of course not! So why assume sanctimoniously that somehow man is moral and has always shared the same morals because of God. Second, systems create values, or in the lower animal kingdom, ways of survival. Cheetahs don't eat themselves. They eat other animals just like humans do. Lion packs, monkeys, apes, all have systems which impose some collective control to ensure survival. Isn't this what humans do? A higher functioning brain means humans evolve (darwin) their way of thinking to ensure longevity. Lastly, before the modern definition of God, were there no morals or values systems? WHat of other civilizations that don't believe your version of god? Or, are you saying all forms of God create values? And are you saying all forms of values are therefore good because any version of God was the genesis for those values? The system created a culture. the culture created the god, which solidified and codified a way to control the population. Hope this helps give you a way to think logically.
Mark at 8:13PM on Aug 14th 2008
6. Christians like to say over and over how moral they are, because we all know they are no more moral than anyone else, and usually less so.
Dennis at 3:24PM on Aug 14th 2008
7. This is too easy.
Since there are no gods, we MUST have gotten our sense of morality from Benny Hill.
not-pboyfloyd at 3:30PM on Aug 14th 2008
8. As pointed out, many, many animals show moral behavior toward memnbers of *their own species.*
We kill cows, cheetahs kill antelope. Same diff.
Cheetahs care or their young. And their mates.
Depending on the social organizations of the animals in question, some do show a lot of altruism. Some will even die for another of their species. Bees gladly give their lives for the hive. Chimps all get along in their tribes, and mostly aggress toward stranger-tribes. Like christians in that regard. Xenophobic.
Saint Brian the Godless at 3:33PM on Aug 14th 2008
9. Jesus loves me, yes I know
Cause the Bible tells me so
That is all I need to hear
And so I know I'll never fear
Nothing else is in my head
Except a book by guys long dead
Science isn't telling me
What I can and cannot see
I never, ever take a look
Since I only own one book
Jesus is my only thought
When others ask me what I've bought
I’d rather pluck out both my eyes
So that I can't see the lies
That Science tells us are the truth
I think that Science is uncouth!
Telling me that things fall down
And how a cricket makes a sound
And how planets spin around the sun
And how the gears in watches run
I do not need to hear the facts
I only need religious tracts
And prayers to our Great Lord above
Who blinded me with Bible Love
It feels so good to be so dense
To live behind an iron fence
To shelter fragile minds from truth
(Indoctrinate them in their youth)
Feed them tales of God above
And all of His undying Love
And how he put things in this place
Plain as the nose there on your face
That seem to say that He's not real
That's just the lying Science deal!
He put them here to fool us guys
When we try to use our eyes
We know better, yes we do
Science is at best, untrue
At worst a strange Satanic plot
To show what is real, and what is not
Why should we care what is real?
We still have the Christian deal
Believe in God, at any cost
And look to others like we're lost
Hope for God to make it clear
When the Rapture cometh near
With nonbelievers left behind
You'll all be sorry that you whined
Of how we're descended from some beast
(I don't believe it in the least)
“No Thanks” I say to Science stuff
I think that I have had enough
Of facts and reason, Truth and Hope
I'd much prefer to be a dope.
Saint Brian the Godless at 3:35PM on Aug 14th 2008
10.
Wow - what a hot steaming cup of stupid THIS one is.
Almost every society has a "moral code" since the dawn of time. They boil down to "Don't kill tribe members," "Don't steal from tribe members" and "Don't eat each other." As societies became more complex, more complex rules developed. As knowledge became more vast, new social mores came to be ("don't have sex within the family").
It was BASIC SURVIVAL SKILLS. Even wild animals have these. There are videos of Wildebeats rescuing their young from lions. Certain animals will adopt parentless young. Even some insects have a social structure. Once again, D'Stupid fills a blog with utter nonesense, another pathetic dig at Richard Dawkins, and dodges issues that might sully his cause (Rush Limaugh's slander against Mrs Edwards, another Conservative Mouth Breather murdering liberals). Evolution is real, but then again, so is de-evolution.
T.Brough at 3:44PM on Aug 14th 2008
11. Another chapter in the war between reason and making shit up. (sigh)
Saint Brian the Godless at 3:57PM on Aug 14th 2008
12. Thanks for today's blog DD. You've just solved the riddle about how Obama developed his abortion stance. He must have sought Singer's advice prior to his opposition of the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act and the Partial Birth Abortion ban. (see NYT/John Broder - 08/06/08). I was curious how anyone, particularly a father with his own kids, could sanction snuffing out a tiny, innocent life that miraculously made it outside the womb. I know he's not the subject of today's blog and I'm not trying to distract, but I couldn't help but make the connection.
fanman at 3:59PM on Aug 14th 2008
13. Rather, the deeper point is that morality seems built into human nature, and it doesn't have an adequate Darwinian explanation.
----------------------------------
...says the nonscientist english major christian.
There's a difference between science not having an adequate explanation and science having a perfectly sound but complex one and being too dense to understand it and too biased to care.
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:03PM on Aug 14th 2008
14. I know he's not the subject of today's blog and I'm not trying to distract, but I couldn't help but make the connection.
fanman at 3:59PM on Aug 14th 2008
-----------------------
Of course you couldn't help but. Christians can never help but. If they could, they'd be decent and nice people.
Your point was complete and utter bullshit, by the way. You must think this Singer ellow is some huge icon of liberalism or atheist thought or something, but I've never heard of him, and I don't care about him. I make up my own mind, as does Obama I'm sure. You get what's in your mind spooned into it by some priest or some right-wing radio a-hole or Fox un-news. Have a genuine opinion someday. Your head won't fall off, you know.
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:08PM on Aug 14th 2008
15. I think the verdict is in DD ... your "bad antelope" analogy really bites. Killing in the name of speicies survival has nothing to do with your own sense of "Christian morality".
Why don't you give us an example of this "Christian morality" that the atheists fail to do ... yet would be very helpful in the everyday life if they did?
JimCO at 4:09PM on Aug 14th 2008