Is there morality without God? This was the topic which I debated with Princeton philosopher Peter Singer on the Riz Khan show on Al-Jazeera Monday. The segment is now up on the web and you can watch it here.
No, I haven't signed on as an Al-Jazeera regular. But the producers of the Riz Khan show on that network seemed a bit disappointed when Richard Dawkins agreed to appear on their show but then threw a tantrum when he found out he was scheduled to debate me. Instead Dawkins insisted on separate segments, with him going second, so that I wouldn't have a chance to challenge his arguments.
Singer is a much braver soul, and truth be told, he strikes me as more articulate and versatile than Dawkins. I suspect the only reason Singer isn't more of an atheist hero is because his social positions are so controversial. Basically Singer has declared that newborns have no rights and can be killed off during the first few weeks of their life, and he would vastly liberalize the rules for infanticide and euthanasia. Singer and I will be debating all this on December 3 at Princeton University. By all means come, but perhaps you should leave the grandparents at home.
In the Al-Jazeera exchange, Singer echoed a theme sounded by some of the street interviews: we don't need God to be good. And in this sense, who can disagree? Of course atheists can be kind and truthful and keep their oaths and contracts. No one is saying that Christians have a monopoly on virtue, or that unbelievers are incapable of it.
Rather, the deeper point is that morality seems built into human nature, and it doesn't have an adequate Darwinian explanation. Singer, an ardent Darwinist, admits this. He said on the show that evolution tells us what we are but it doesn't tell us anything about how we should be. Dawkins too writes that he is Darwinian in his biology but anti-Darwinian in his ethics. According to Dawkins, biology programs selfishness into our genes but we can rise above all that and behave unselfishly. Yet as I pointed out on the show, ants and cheetahs cannot do this. It makes no sense to say, "Bad cheetah! You shouldn't chase after that nice antelope." So where do we evolved primates get this other capacity that frequently operates against our self-interest? This is at least worth reflecting on.
One caller provoked Singer's derision by suggesting that even atheist philosophers get their morality from religion. Singer responded that this was factually wrong. He noted that John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham weren't religious. True, but their utilitarianism is based on the principle of equal respect for human beings, and that is a principle that came into the West because of Christianity. Singer attempted to deny this. He tried to locate this Western egalitarianism in Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, but he offered nothing to substantiate this far-fetched claim. If there were historians watching the show, I am sure they were shaking their heads. Certainly the American founders didn't get "all men are created equal" from the sayings of Epictetus or the meditations of Aurelius. By their own account, they attributed our egual dignity and our inalienable rights to the "Creator."
I'm looking forward to exploring this topic in greater detail with Singer on his home campus in December. But before that, I have my third debate with Christopher Hitchens coming up September 10 in St. Louis. As Hitchens himself put it, all our debates are different because each time we get better at countering what the other guy said the last time. If you'd like to find out more and get tickets, you can do so here.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 28)
16. 5. Christians like to say over and over how moral they are, because we all know they are no more moral than anyone else, and usually less so.
Dennis at 3:24PM on Aug 14th
--------------------------------
Gee Dennis, I have been a christian for many years and I have never heard a christian say they were more moral than anyone else.
Just because a christian condemms sin does not mean he or she considers themselves above others.
You have come to that conclusion because of the condemnation you feel when your sin is pointed out to you.
Observant at 4:11PM on Aug 14th 2008
17. Dinesh should have titled this one "Can We Have Apples Without Orangutans?"
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:20PM on Aug 14th 2008
18. Can We Have Morality Without God?
xxxxxxx
Yes, any other questions we can help with?
Pliny-the-in-between at 4:25PM on Aug 14th 2008
19. So now you're Saint Brian the attack dog? You're becoming more like James Carville every day. I simply stated facts, with references, along with my *genuine opinion*. You've got issues man, but I'll try to help. Here's something just for you:
*Ode to GSB*
Here's to one Godless Saint Brian
Who spent his whole life Christ denyin’,
When the real truth was clear
About all he holds dear
He said “Screw it; it just ain’t worth tryin’”.
Each post from Godless Saint Brian
Reveals a man insecure about dyin'.
Though some here were fooled,
When his rhetoric cooled
There was nuthin’ but Brian and cryin’.
Here lies one Godless Saint Brian
The mourners are gone; some were sighin’
While he could have been saved
He just ranted and raved
Till his atheist butt started fryin'.
fanman at 4:26PM on Aug 14th 2008
20. Gee Dennis, I have been a christian for many years and I have never heard a christian say they were more moral than anyone else.
Just because a christian condemms sin does not mean he or she considers themselves above others.
You have come to that conclusion because of the condemnation you feel when your sin is pointed out to you.
Observant at 4:11PM on Aug 14th 2008
--------------------------
When you talk to me, you do so as a man that knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am damned unless I change over to your way. This comes across, you know. In ordre to not come across that way, you'd have to not believe that. But you do, and always will unless you have an epiphany, which is unlikely given your obvious level of commitment. This in spite of your own god's injunction to not judge others, which somehow you can twist around so that it doesn't apply. Thus to me you come across as a judgemental egotistical hypocrite, which, in effect, you are. Just because you're egotistical enough to "know" that you're right is not anything to me but egotism. Nobody can know that they're right about this sort of thing unless they're a fool. Sorry, it's true. Please change if you don't want to be that.
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:27PM on Aug 14th 2008
21. 4. There has never been a god, yet there is morality. Morality must be a social survival skill, not an instinct.
JetFlyingV,
Your use of the word "never" reveals one of the following:
1. Ignorance (you haven't actually applied logic to your thinking), or
2. Deceit (you know your argument is logically invalid, but you choose to stand behind it anyway for some personal reason)
Bottom line: your lack of logic is unbearable, kind of like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's loud, annoying and serves only one purpose: it annoys every rational person within earshot.
Admittedly, I cannot "prove" there is a God. By the same standard, you cannot "prove" there is not a God. The day you can do so is the day your statement above will be vindicated. Until then, cleanup your arguments or go warm up the bench.
Troy at 4:32PM on Aug 14th 2008
22. Fanman, your poem is pure projection. You have the fear of "dyin." And you've made a retard of yourself over it.
As to your last line, why do you have to be such an jerk all the time? It's your holy torture chamber, you worry about it. I reject your hell as the demented and evil fantasy that it is, and I reject you as anything but an idiot who likes to believe in a sadomasochistic belief system. Stop the threats. Or stop passing them along from your divine inforcer there, whatever you think it is that you're doing.
You *almost* make me wish it were real, your hell. Because one thing would be for certain and for sure. You'd be waking up in it one second after you died with one "hell" of a shocked look on your face.
How's it feel, you pathetic damnation-junkie?
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:38PM on Aug 14th 2008
23. Christians! Wake up! You're in an abusive relationship with your deity! He's a sadistic egotistical violent hypocrite that abuses both mentally and physically! Stop the cycle of abuse. Divorce him and find peace!
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:42PM on Aug 14th 2008
24. (Not that he's real) (So you're really just abusing yourselves. Stop it before you go blind.)
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:44PM on Aug 14th 2008
25. Sure, you can have morality without God, but you can't have salvation without Him.
WENDY at 4:46PM on Aug 14th 2008
26. aw Brian, c'mon. I really tried hard to be nice, writing a poem and all. I thought for sure you'd appreciate the creativity, being something of a poet yourself. But, as usual, you immediately resort to name-calling and mudslinging. Seems immature to me, but who am I?
fanman at 4:49PM on Aug 14th 2008
27. WENDY
I guess we'll just have to get along without 'salvation' whatever magical nonsense that is supposed to be.
not-pboyfloyd at 4:49PM on Aug 14th 2008
28. Seems immature to me, but who am I?
fanman at 4:49PM on Aug 14th 2008
------------------------
I hate to be told that I'm damned in any way, shape, or form. I find it INCREDIBLY rude. You chose to say it in poem form, but I don't care how you said it. So to answer you rlast question above, you're a rude person who delights in the idea of those that disagree with you frying forever in hell. A sicko, in other words.
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:58PM on Aug 14th 2008
29. When the Good Lord said, "come forth with brains," Denise came fifth.
gshort3011 at 4:58PM on Aug 14th 2008
30. you'd centainly know about *incredibly rude*, you've pretty much cornered that market. As for the poem, I had the obviously misguided impression that, at least, you had a sense of humor. But then, that would be a challenge for anyone so impaled on their own ego as you.
fanman at 5:03PM on Aug 14th 2008