Is there morality without God? This was the topic which I debated with Princeton philosopher Peter Singer on the Riz Khan show on Al-Jazeera Monday. The segment is now up on the web and you can watch it here.
No, I haven't signed on as an Al-Jazeera regular. But the producers of the Riz Khan show on that network seemed a bit disappointed when Richard Dawkins agreed to appear on their show but then threw a tantrum when he found out he was scheduled to debate me. Instead Dawkins insisted on separate segments, with him going second, so that I wouldn't have a chance to challenge his arguments.
Singer is a much braver soul, and truth be told, he strikes me as more articulate and versatile than Dawkins. I suspect the only reason Singer isn't more of an atheist hero is because his social positions are so controversial. Basically Singer has declared that newborns have no rights and can be killed off during the first few weeks of their life, and he would vastly liberalize the rules for infanticide and euthanasia. Singer and I will be debating all this on December 3 at Princeton University. By all means come, but perhaps you should leave the grandparents at home.
In the Al-Jazeera exchange, Singer echoed a theme sounded by some of the street interviews: we don't need God to be good. And in this sense, who can disagree? Of course atheists can be kind and truthful and keep their oaths and contracts. No one is saying that Christians have a monopoly on virtue, or that unbelievers are incapable of it.
Rather, the deeper point is that morality seems built into human nature, and it doesn't have an adequate Darwinian explanation. Singer, an ardent Darwinist, admits this. He said on the show that evolution tells us what we are but it doesn't tell us anything about how we should be. Dawkins too writes that he is Darwinian in his biology but anti-Darwinian in his ethics. According to Dawkins, biology programs selfishness into our genes but we can rise above all that and behave unselfishly. Yet as I pointed out on the show, ants and cheetahs cannot do this. It makes no sense to say, "Bad cheetah! You shouldn't chase after that nice antelope." So where do we evolved primates get this other capacity that frequently operates against our self-interest? This is at least worth reflecting on.
One caller provoked Singer's derision by suggesting that even atheist philosophers get their morality from religion. Singer responded that this was factually wrong. He noted that John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham weren't religious. True, but their utilitarianism is based on the principle of equal respect for human beings, and that is a principle that came into the West because of Christianity. Singer attempted to deny this. He tried to locate this Western egalitarianism in Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, but he offered nothing to substantiate this far-fetched claim. If there were historians watching the show, I am sure they were shaking their heads. Certainly the American founders didn't get "all men are created equal" from the sayings of Epictetus or the meditations of Aurelius. By their own account, they attributed our egual dignity and our inalienable rights to the "Creator."
I'm looking forward to exploring this topic in greater detail with Singer on his home campus in December. But before that, I have my third debate with Christopher Hitchens coming up September 10 in St. Louis. As Hitchens himself put it, all our debates are different because each time we get better at countering what the other guy said the last time. If you'd like to find out more and get tickets, you can do so here.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 28)
31. When you talk to me, you do so as a man that knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am damned unless I change over to your way. This comes across, you know. In ordre to not come across that way, you'd have to not believe that. But you do, and always will unless you have an epiphany, which is unlikely given your obvious level of commitment. This in spite of your own god's injunction to not judge others, which somehow you can twist around so that it doesn't apply. Thus to me you come across as a judgemental egotistical hypocrite, which, in effect, you are. Just because you're egotistical enough to "know" that you're right is not anything to me but egotism. Nobody can know that they're right about this sort of thing unless they're a fool. Sorry, it's true. Please change if you don't want to be that.
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:27PM on Aug 14th 2008
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I do know beyond doubt.
I have tried without success to help you understand that God is able to reveal himself to a person so that they can know the truth of his existance.
It is not my way, It is the way of Christ that is recorded in the Holy Bible.
You have said many times you do not believe.
If this is true it is not I who dammed you, You do it to yourself.
The Bible said he that believes not is condemmed allready. See ,all I did was to inlighten you on what the scripture says.
I did not write the Bible, He called me to preach it, and preach it I will.
And last but not least, I may act or seem foolish to you. But that is not the same as being a fool.
A fool is one according to the scriptures that does not believe there is a God.
If you would pay more atention to the moral code that is hard wired into your being ,it would help you find the real truth you so desperately need.
This is not a judgement on my part but an observation of scriptual spiritual reality.
Observant at 5:04PM on Aug 14th 2008
32. My question is "Can we have morality with God?" I actually feel sorry for the good hearted faithful. Their religion has been hijacked by the far right, so much is said on their behalf by hateful, hypocritical, twisted and downright scary public Christian figures, who have an agenda. Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, the entire Bush administration, (ie: explain justifying torture to this athiest.....you can't!), Fox News, Jerry Falwell, and of course DD. the list is endless. So much crap in the name of God. If I was a Christian, I'd be angry about it. Now excuse me, I have to go deep fry some antelope nuggets.
Jude at 5:09PM on Aug 14th 2008
33. A fool is one according to the scriptures that does not believe there is a God.
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That's funny, because according to everyone else who doesn't believe in scriptures, a fool is someone that believes in scriptures. One of the two sides is right, and I know which one. (Hint Think secular)
Scriptures ARE the programming. Programming always tells you to believe it and think everybody that doesn't is wrong and a fool. If you buy that, you're hooked!
Saint Brian the Godless at 5:11PM on Aug 14th 2008
34. If you would pay more atention to the moral code that is hard wired into your being ,it would help you find the real truth you so desperately need.
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My moral code is what causes me to be REPELLED by your faith! Apparently mine is more inclusive and developed than yours is! And that of your god as well. He's one immoral jerk if ever there was one, not that there is one, if you catch my drift.
Saint Brian the Godless at 5:14PM on Aug 14th 2008
35. 31. My question is "Can we have morality with God?" I actually feel sorry for the good hearted faithful. Their religion has been hijacked by the far right, so much is said on their behalf by hateful, hypocritical, twisted and downright scary public Christian figures, who have an agenda. Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, the entire Bush administration, (ie: explain justifying torture to this athiest.....you can't!), Fox News, Jerry Falwell, and of course DD. the list is endless. So much crap in the name of God. If I was a Christian, I'd be angry about it. Now excuse me, I have to go deep fry some antelope nuggets.
Jude at 5:09PM on Aug 14th 2008
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Hey Jude, don't let us down.
There is no morality outside of God.
Morality is a foot print of God.
Observant at 5:16PM on Aug 14th 2008
36. morality is a function of evolution as is religion itself. Interaction of a codependent species like any primate requires evolution of rules. That doesn't stop with self awareness, but there's soon room for manipulation, which is also part of evolution as is everything every species of life does.
Clif Kuplen at 5:19PM on Aug 14th 2008
37. you can have morality without god but you can't have bread with one meatball.
Clif Kuplen at 5:21PM on Aug 14th 2008
38. My moral code is what causes me to be REPELLED by your faith! Apparently mine is more inclusive and developed than yours is! And that of your god as well. He's one immoral jerk if ever there was one, not that there is one, if you catch my drift.
Saint Brian the Godless at 5:14PM on Aug 14th
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Question, Is it your moral code that repelled you or selfrighteousness?
Would like an honest answer please.
Observant at 5:24PM on Aug 14th 2008
39. Morality existed long before religions.
Morality came into existence with homo sapiens as conformity to human standards of behavior.
Morality is not prescribed.
Morality cannot be prescribed by any religious dogma, not even Christian dogma.
Morality exists because humans exist.
naturalpuppy at 5:28PM on Aug 14th 2008
40. 35. morality is a function of evolution as is religion itself. Interaction of a codependent species like any primate requires evolution of rules. That doesn't stop with self awareness, but there's soon room for manipulation, which is also part of evolution as is everything every species of life does.
Clif Kuplen at 5:19PM on Aug 14th 2008
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Morality has nothing to do with evolution.
Evolutions law is survival of the fittest.
Observant at 5:30PM on Aug 14th 2008
41. I'm disappointed that people like Peter Singer don't go into these debates with the same attitude as people going into debates about ID versus evolution. Morality comes from the way we evolved, and that is a fact, just as evolution itself is fact. By debating without mentioning this is giving credence to the opponent. I think this problem exists because it's difficult to pinpoint the mechanisms of evolution that made us moral human beings. But it's still a fact evolution is the explanation for morality.
Roch at 5:32PM on Aug 14th 2008
42. DD, I agree... the point is that we don't have a good explanation for our behaviors aside from God... we have some kind of moral compass within us and also the capacity to commit all kinds of heinous acts. Why? I keep askin'..
Shannie at 5:34PM on Aug 14th 2008
43. Observant: "Morality has nothing to do with evolution. Evolutions law is survival of the fittest"
Good. Now apply that to a society, troop, gaggle, pack, etc... instead of the individual animal and you will see (wishful thinking on my part) that morality came about through evolution.
Ryan Anderson at 5:38PM on Aug 14th 2008
44. Morality exists because humans exist.
naturalpuppy at 5:28PM on Aug 14th 2008
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You are correct, Mankind was created in the image of God. Morality exist because God exist.
There would be no need for morality if man evolved after the theroy of Darwin.
Morality has to do with right/wrong, good and evil
It is a mater of conscious in answer to God.
Observant at 5:38PM on Aug 14th 2008
45. Morality has nothing to do with evolution.
Evolutions law is survival of the fittest.
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Dear Observant - this is not the definition of evolution. This description first surfaced when gilded age philosophers incorrectly tried to apply evolution to social status discussions. It does not help your position to use simplistic and erroneous terms.
Pliny-the-in-between at 5:40PM on Aug 14th 2008