"Christian God? Jewish God? Or no God?" This was the topic of a very lively Orange County debate between atheist Christopher Hitchens, the Jewish radio host Dennis Prager, and me. The debate was held in the spring at the Bat Yahm Synagogue, and the audience was predominantly Jewish, with a fair representation of Christians and atheists.
This debate is finally online, and you can watch it here.
One might think that this three-way format would benefit Prager and me, because we were the two theists against the atheist. But Hitchens, who is perhaps the most supple debater on the atheist side, did his best to drive a wedge between Prager's position and mine.
For instance, Hitchens hammered Prager on the history of Christian anti-Semitism, leading Prager to make one of the most extraordinary defenses of Christ that I have heard, a defense even more remarkable for its synagogue setting.
Hitchens also tried to get me to dispatch all the Jews in the audience to hell. Aren't you claiming--he asked--that your religion is exclusively true and everyone else's is false? I noted that all three of us on the podium were claiming some form of exclusivity. After all, if Hitchens is right about his atheism it follows that all religions in the world are false. So Hitchens is just as much of an exclusivist as any religious fundamentalist.
Moreover, I noted that Christianity is the only religion that holds another religion, Judaism, to be true. That's why Christians essentially incorporated the entire Old Testament into the Christian Bible. While I believe that Christ is "the way, the truth and the life," I for one am not willing to judge anyone or expel anyone from heaven.
Hitchens on the other hand has said that he doesn't want to go to heaven, which he views as a kind of celestial North Korea. I suspect heaven is full of people who chose God and prayed to Him, "Thy will be done." Hell is reserved for those who by their own free choice refused God and to whom God eventually said, "Thy will be done."
I notice that after posting all my early debates on his website, Richard Dawkins has stopped featuring my recent debates. This is perhaps an indication of how the atheists are faring. Of late I also haven't heard any of these guys call themselves "brights."
If Hitchens can't get the job done, who can? While the pusillanimous Dawkins won't debate me, at least Hitchens keeps trying. My re-match with him is on September 10 in St. Louis, and tickets are available here.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 32)
16. DD is proving RD's Hitler comparison, probably egged on by Prager's radio-honed baritone.
Ian X. Christian at 3:14PM on Aug 17th 2008
17. Dawkins had made it QUITE clear why he won't debate DD: he doesn't like him, an opinion shared by many. He has no obligation to do so, and frankly, were he now to agree to such - as DD FRAUDULENTLY suggested he had recently - I'd lose some respect for him.
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What's the point "debating" with someone that will just twist your words around like renzo does and "win" the debate by obfuscation and deception? I wouldn't debate renzo in public, not for fear of really losing it but because he's more practiced at making it appear as if I did.
It's stupid to debate science versus religion annyway. Religionists aren't swayed by pesky facts and proof anyhow, and the atheists are already the peanut gallery. So what can one accomplish? Well, even if you win the debate the moron religionists will think that you've lost it ant only tout it as more proof that their side is right (as if!) so it would be a complete waste of time and would only help out the religionist side of the argument.
It's easy to win an argument with a Christian, since they are based in beliefs rather than thoughts, faith rather than reason, fantasy rather than fact. The hard part is getting them to see that they've lost the argument, for the same reasons.
Saint Brian the Godless at 3:32PM on Aug 17th 2008
18. I was just on the Young Turk's blog and Clif and Robert Okane were having a debate, and Okane went and google searched Clif's name, found out the actual, real name of his daughter, and tried to scare him with it!!! (And did, of course!)
The "good christian" thing to do, huh? What a fucking SCUMBAG!!!!
Saint Brian the Godless at 4:04PM on Aug 17th 2008
19. ATHEIST
Go back and open your Bibles.
Jesus goes into a synagogue in Capernaum where an invisible demon, literally an unclean pneuma...
... has taken possession of someone.
The voice of the unclean pneuma says, "We know you are the Holy One of God, Jesus of Nazareth.'
Don't you GET it?
This is the worst kind of Nonsense. People who take Christianity at face value are idiots.
There is no God. God does NOT exist.
God is a con game.
God is a way to get other people to behave the way you want them to... including your children.
It's nonsense... and Dinesh isn't worth debating.
Learn.... to.... THINK.
William Hays at 4:29PM on Aug 17th 2008
20. Robert Okane,
If what Brian is asserting is true, you should be ashamed of yourself. You resort to bullying and terrifying someone because you can't handle their arguments?
As a Christian, if indeed you are one, I am ashamed on your behalf. I don't care how much Clif and I would go around, I wouldn't DREAM of doing that to him.
oneblood at 4:48PM on Aug 17th 2008
21. Let's see... Dinesh seems to have three points.
One... he's proclaiming he beaten an atheist in a debate; or if he didn't then his contemporary did. Whoopdedo... what else is new?
Two... he's stated that Dawkins is afraid to debate him and once again atheists are running scared. Whoopdedo... anything else?
Three... he's claimed that christianity recognizes the jewish god as god. Um... hasn't that been an established fact for two thousand years? Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all claim to worship the same god; which makes sense given Jesus was a Jew and Mohammed a Christian.
As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Simply, christianity claims that there is no way to heaven except by accepting christ as the messiah, som of god, yadda yadda yadda. Jews don't do this. It's one of the reason why they've endured two millenia of shit. So according to the rules of christianity, they don't get to go to heaven because they haven't accepted Christ. The same goes for muslims, who hold Jesus as a prophet, but not the messiah. Likewise for muslims, a christian can't go to heaven because they have not accepted the words of Mohammed as true.
I note that in the debate, Dinesh once more takes the dodge of 'I don't know' when pressed on Jews getting into heaven and hell. If the bible is true, then they can't. As simple as that. Just as if the Qaran is true, christians can't get into heaven. Theoretically if the Torah is true then God's children will return to him regardless of their religion, but that always remains to be seen.
It is simple logical supposition.
Atheism does not make that supposition. All religions are false until proven true. Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Norse, Aztec, Hawaiian... doesn't matter. Believe it all you want, it still isn't true. Untill you can define what God is and produce objective evidence of that being, you're just wasting the Atheist's time.
Somber at 4:56PM on Aug 17th 2008
22. Somber,
Scripture says all Israel will be saved.
oneblood at 5:19PM on Aug 17th 2008
23. Somber,
With the subtext being that they will, at some point in the future, freely choose Jesus as the one who took the punishment for their (Jews, and the world) sins.
oneblood at 5:22PM on Aug 17th 2008
24. Oh he did it! Go to the young turks blog and read it all. He did it.
Hypochristain.
Saint Brian the Godless at 5:28PM on Aug 17th 2008
25. How about GOD and the Judeo/Christian/Islamic cults are put into the dustbin of history where they belong................
Larry at 5:41PM on Aug 17th 2008
26. The bible also says there was a 24 hour eclipse, even though the physical act of stopping the rotation of the moon would have attracted the moon, caused a world wide earthquake and a cessassation of the tides, and... incidently, was completely unrecorded by other cultures like the Chinese (who kept phenominal records of eclipses) or the Romans (who did likewise).
Given that, forgive my skepticism when one presents any sort of scriptorial claims.
Somber at 5:45PM on Aug 17th 2008
27. Looking back at the Young Turks blog, I see that an "anonymous" originally posted clif's daughter's name in the middle of another argument going on with Okane, so I retract what I said about Okane and now re-state it at "anonymous" except of course it's an anonymous name in the first place. It was reprehensible. But it apparently wasn't Okane, is my point, so I apologize. I typed too quickly.
Saint Brian the Godless at 7:11PM on Aug 17th 2008
28. Hi Adolph! How's Eva doing?
Pestilent pustulence perhaps preferable?
Saint Brian the Godless at 7:36PM on Aug 17th 2008
29. Double-Douchebag, you are a real piece of work. Trying to hock tickets to see your make an ass of yourself ... AGAIN ? LOL Anyone can get that for free just by skimming through your stupid ramblings as you attempt to cast doubt on what is obviously a scam for con-artists and idiots, known as religion. I would normally tell someone in your position to GET A CLUE, but this seems to be utterly beyond your capability. You are so desperate to try and turn a buck from the dumb asses out there who can't see you dealing from the bottom of the deck, that morality is the last thing you care one bit about. In the name of Capitalism, you are a huckster through and through.
Master Shake at 7:40PM on Aug 17th 2008
30.
Is this another re-run??
Is it just me having some kind of deja-vu moment?
Anyone?
mac at 7:43PM on Aug 17th 2008