"Christian God? Jewish God? Or no God?" This was the topic of a very lively Orange County debate between atheist Christopher Hitchens, the Jewish radio host Dennis Prager, and me. The debate was held in the spring at the Bat Yahm Synagogue, and the audience was predominantly Jewish, with a fair representation of Christians and atheists.
This debate is finally online, and you can watch it here.
One might think that this three-way format would benefit Prager and me, because we were the two theists against the atheist. But Hitchens, who is perhaps the most supple debater on the atheist side, did his best to drive a wedge between Prager's position and mine.
For instance, Hitchens hammered Prager on the history of Christian anti-Semitism, leading Prager to make one of the most extraordinary defenses of Christ that I have heard, a defense even more remarkable for its synagogue setting.
Hitchens also tried to get me to dispatch all the Jews in the audience to hell. Aren't you claiming--he asked--that your religion is exclusively true and everyone else's is false? I noted that all three of us on the podium were claiming some form of exclusivity. After all, if Hitchens is right about his atheism it follows that all religions in the world are false. So Hitchens is just as much of an exclusivist as any religious fundamentalist.
Moreover, I noted that Christianity is the only religion that holds another religion, Judaism, to be true. That's why Christians essentially incorporated the entire Old Testament into the Christian Bible. While I believe that Christ is "the way, the truth and the life," I for one am not willing to judge anyone or expel anyone from heaven.
Hitchens on the other hand has said that he doesn't want to go to heaven, which he views as a kind of celestial North Korea. I suspect heaven is full of people who chose God and prayed to Him, "Thy will be done." Hell is reserved for those who by their own free choice refused God and to whom God eventually said, "Thy will be done."
I notice that after posting all my early debates on his website, Richard Dawkins has stopped featuring my recent debates. This is perhaps an indication of how the atheists are faring. Of late I also haven't heard any of these guys call themselves "brights."
If Hitchens can't get the job done, who can? While the pusillanimous Dawkins won't debate me, at least Hitchens keeps trying. My re-match with him is on September 10 in St. Louis, and tickets are available here.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 32)
31. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sorry Robert Okane. I was mistaken. I want to make this clear!
Looking back at the Young Turks blog, I see that an "anonymous" originally posted clif's daughter's name in the middle of another argument going on with Okane, so I retract what I said about Okane and now re-state it at "anonymous" except of course it's an anonymous name in the first place. It was reprehensible. But it apparently wasn't Okane, is my point, so I apologize. I typed too quickly.
OKANE DIDN'T DO IT. SORRY ROBERT! It looked that way from the way it was pasted into your and clif's posts, and they were pretty irate posts anyhow, so it looked like it was originally from you.
Saint Brian the Godless at 7:43PM on Aug 17th 2008
32.
Mac, no deja-vu, I think DoubleD has summer as his re-run period, he tweaks a few thoughts from previous pages, changes the dates, and voila! instant page.
JefFlyingV at 7:53PM on Aug 17th 2008
33. Somber
The kingdom of heaven is where Jesus said it is, within. It is available to everyone at any time. Organized religion tries to make it appear that they control if a person gets in or not which is untrue.
Jerry Brown at 8:16PM on Aug 17th 2008
34. As a Christian I am exceedingly proud of men like Dinesh. He is eloquant, educated and brilliant. Watching the entries in this Blog is really quite amusing as it reveals that he hits on such a raw nerve! Why should that be? The Evidence for a Creator is everywhere you look. Why are you so afraid?
Linda at 9:46PM on Aug 17th 2008
35. my vote- no god
me at 8:30PM on Aug 17th 2008
36. "If Jesus were to come today, people
would not even crucify him. They
would ask him to dinner, and hear
what he had to say, and make fun
of him."
---Thomas Carlyle
The existence of other sons of God, other messiahs and other incarnations of God, has been dealt with by one of the 20th century's leading Protestant theologian. Paul Tillich wrote in a 1978 essay, "Redemption of Other Worlds":
"...a question arises which has been carefully avoided by many traditional theologians...It is the problem of how to understand the meaning of the symbol 'Christ' in light of the immensity of the universe...the infinitely small part of the universe which man and his history constitute, and the possibility of other 'worlds' in which divine self-manifestations may appear and be received.
"Such developments become especially important if one considers that biblical and related expectations envisaged the coming of the Messiah within a cosmic frame. The universe will be reborn into a new eon. The function of the bearer of the New Being is not only to save individuals and to transform man's historical existence but to renew the universe. And the assumption is that mankind and individual men are so dependent on the powers of the universe, that salvation of the one without the other is unthinkable."
In other words, given the vastness of the universe and the possibility of other worlds, how can the divine incarnation on this small speck of dust be understood on a cosmic scale?
Tillich sees the basic answer to such questions "in the concept of essential man appearing in a personal life under the conditions of existential estrangement (from God)... The man... represents human history...he creates the meaning of human history. It is the eternal relation of God to man which is manifest in the Christ. At the same time, our basic answer leaves the universe open for possible divine manifestations in other areas or periods of being.
"Such possibilities cannot be denied. But they cannot be proved or disproved. Incarnation is unique for the special group in which it happens, but it is not unique in the sense that other singular incarnations for other unique worlds are excluded.
"Man cannot claim that the infinite has entered the finite to overcome its existential estrangement in mankind alone. Man cannot claim to occupy the only possible place for Incarnation. Although statements about other worlds and God's relation to them cannot be verified experientially, they are important because they help to interpret the meaning of terms like 'mediator,' 'savior,' 'Incarnation,' 'the Messiah,' and 'the new eon.'
"Perhaps one can go a step further. The interdependence of everything with everything else in the totality of being includes a participation of nature in history and demands a participation of the universe in salvation.
"Therefore, if there are non-human 'worlds' in which existential estrangement is not only real--as it is in the whole universe--but in which there is also a type of awareness of this estrangement, such worlds cannot be without the operation of saving power within them. Otherwise self-destruction would be the inescapable consequence.
"The manifestation of saving power in one place implies that saving power is operating in all places. The expectation of the Messiah as the bearer of the New Being presupposes that 'God loves the universe,' even though in the appearance of the Christ He actualizes this love for historical man alone."
Within the framework of Christian theology, then, Tillich sees the possibility of other incarnations of God on other worlds, as well as the salvation of nonhumans. This theology is almost Hindu in thought, recognizing that God has indeed incarnated many times, and on many different worlds, in many different universes. According to Hindu thought, there are billions of worlds and universes, endlessly being created and destroyed in time cycles lasting billions of years.
Today, our world is one. Nations are globally connected, as never before in human history. This was not the case two thousand years ago, where Palestine, China and South America were--for all intents and purposes--separate worlds. Tillich's theology also opens up the possibility of nonhuman--even animal--spirituality.
The Reverend Alvin Hart, an Episcopalian priest in New York, says that John 14:6 is often mistranslated. The original Greek "ego emi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erkatai pros ton patera ei ma di emou" should read "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and none of you are coming to the Father except through me."
According to Reverend Hart, "...the key word here is ' erketai.' This is an extremely present-tense form of the verb...You see? In Palestine, two thousand years ago, Jesus was the guru. If he wanted to say that he would be the teacher for all time, he would have used a word other than erkatai, but he didn't."
Dr. Boyd Daniels of the American Bible Society concurs: "Oh, yes. The word erketai is definitely the present tense form of the verb. Jesus was speaking to his contemporaries."
According to the Book of Mormon, God Himself specifically refutes the misconception that He can only make Himself known to one particular people at one point in human history, and leave only one set of written scriptures:
"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and i bring forth My word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore, murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of My word?
"Know ye that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together, the testimony of the two nations shall run together also...And because I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for My work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man...
"Neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. For I command all men, both in the East and in the West, and in the North and in the South, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them. For out of the books that will be written I will judge the world..."
Vasu Murti at 9:12PM on Aug 17th 2008
37. God is God no matter what you believe. Only God can truly judge a person. DO NOT JUDGE YOUR NEIGHBORS!!! To tell another person they are WRONG is judging them----LET GOD DO THE JUDGING!!!
Anna at 9:26PM on Aug 17th 2008
38.
Vasu great Carlyle quote. Other than the quote, what are you trying to say?
JefFlyingV at 9:28PM on Aug 17th 2008
39. "38. As a Christian I am exceedingly proud of men like Dinesh. He is eloquant, educated and brilliant."
As the christian you are, you should be proud, and you should think him brilliant.
Now go away and leave the discussion here to intelligent beings.
brandon at 10:21PM on Aug 17th 2008
40. Linda post 38 - They are afraid because if there is a God then they are acountable to their Creator. Quite frankly that scares the weebeeegeeebeeeies out of 'em.
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:23PM on Aug 17th 2008
41. SBtG - You impress me, you did well in your apologies to Robert. There is hope for you still. LOL...LOL...
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:24PM on Aug 17th 2008
42. brandon post 39 - that would leave you out.
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:25PM on Aug 17th 2008
43. Anna post 36 - If only it was so simple. Every society must have laws to govern the community. Not to tell a theif not to steal is ok, punish them if they do. A rapist, a murder, etc... etc... mankind will not judge himself, because everyone thinks they are doing right in their own eyes.
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:41PM on Aug 17th 2008
44. "42. brandon post 39 - that would leave you out.
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:25PM on Aug 17th 2008"
Oh, the irony.
Keep on spewing, MIW. It just re-emphasizes my point...
brandon at 10:45PM on Aug 17th 2008
45. 41. SBtG - You impress me, you did well in your apologies to Robert. There is hope for you still. LOL...LOL...
Man_in_Wilderness at 10:24PM on Aug 17th 2008
-----------------------
There is a part of you that is decent, and that part recognizes that I am decent too. However while I used to think that you were capable of real thought and even perhaps some degree of introspection in the sense of thinking about what *you* say and do, lately, especially with your insistence of using "Hussein" to refer to Obama, I am sadly losing hope for you rapidly.
Saint Brian the Godless at 11:37PM on Aug 17th 2008